i think i have a fine grasp of it, but i may be wrong, and i'm very willing to try to figure it out.

the thing you confused me on there is the very end, the bacteria = zygote. if that is true in the examples we are using, then why the uproar about the zygote while lowly bacteria gets killed with no forethought?

if i'm missing something you're getting at, i'm sorry we're not clicking in the words we're using. i DO understand the general pro-life stance and most of what you've been saying, but have not understood where we're misfiring back and forth

Skippy,
I am a Christian as well.
I see no inconsitancy with your belief that "God created the universe and earth and people". He also created us in His image. How He arrived at the creation we now experience is open to interpretation, both yours and mine.
If you want me to cite examples of what "time" represents to Him, I will gladly.
Monkeys have nothing to do with this...He created them as well.

Dts do you have aim or yahoo or the like i would like to discuss this

oh ok! then THAT is what i am not understanding at all. potential is potential is potential.

alive is alive.

so how do we insist on saving one and not the other when we cannot gaurantee that the other is not potential for human life?

maybe you've explained that a dozen times already and i just havent understood where you've explained that,

Skippy,
PM me with your aol messenger buddy name. I'll get back to you...I have to do something now but would be happy to chat with you later.
DTS

i understand that part. i understand that my logic in that section was flawed, because by aborting the baby in order to spare her the trauma, it's still 1 for 1. either way, one person is going to be screwed. i get that, and understood your ability to argue that one.

so so true. they are fruitless, but never cease to be interesting to see how everyone else approaches all three of those things.

ok, i understand that argument perfectly now. this, however, illustrates that from the get-go we are not even approaching this from the same place -- so the discussion was at a standstill from the very first post.

i don't believe that a zygote is a human at a specific stage, and i don't think that the comparison to toddler-stage humans really works. though i DO see how this argument can be made and why it is compelling.

i just don't believe that to be true. it's the age old question of when it becomes a human being. i can't give you an exact answer, but i tend to gravitate towards when it can survive outside of the mother's womb.

glad it took me over an hour to understand you, killed some great time at work :)

it very well might change my mind on it a bit. i know (or think i know) that no preemie at 8 weeks could survive. but we'll cross the bridge when technology forces us to cross it

But we all agree contraceptives are good for preventing pregnancy in the first place, yes?

I think that part, contraceptives, is where the middle ground will be found, because both sides have their stance on it, which, at this point in our knowledge of science and spirituality, depend on a gut feeling (on both sides, really). And no one thinks it's a good position for a woman to be in, having to decide to abort. So why isn't everyone in the public sphere focusing on reducing the number of unplanned pregnancies in the first place? What do you guys think?

Thanks for giving me a discussing that went heated and then calm as opinions, feelings, etc. did actually get clarified. Dude, if you guys were in Congress, stuff might actually get done... :)

Genuine Risk,
I'll just tell you that it all comes down to one thing...aspirin.
Yup! You heard me...aspirin.
It's one of the remedies that the "Vatican" hasn't condemned despite their infinite wisdom, insighting the Muslims, starting crusades, inquisitions and all of their "devine interpretation" and "spin" of Jesus's words.
None of the "saints" will object.
Aspirin (bayer or generic) is really the answer to this one.
It works for the head aches...and we've had more than plenty of those lately.
Here's how it's done:
1) Take aspirin out of pill box.
2) Smile alluringly by female at "love interest".
3) Place aspirin firmly between knees and squeeze.
4) Get "love interest" a beer if you can hop to the fridge. He'll calm down after the third or fourth one.
5) Then it might be safe to remove the aspirin. If not, make "eggs Benedict".

so true. the problem is that both sides see how to do that differently. nobody likes abortion. nobody. but the far right wants to paint any pro-choicer as a murderer, and the far left wants to paint the pro-lifers and loony Christians.

We stop this joke about abstinence-only sex education right off. No matter where in the country, conservative, liberal, rural, urban, it does not matter.

I would actually say that the one thing we can all agree on is that we want fewer abortions. How we get there is another matter. To me though, from looking at the history of abortion, outlawing it is not even close to the way to do that.

luckily the people on this board are by and large rational, intelligent people, so we're able to have this kind of discussion without resorting to calling names and getting so mad at each other that we refuse to talk.

Try a film called 'the silent scream'. It shows conclusively that fetuses feel pain. Sound scientific study? Abortion mills generate millions of dollars. Planned Parenthood? Find out the true intentions of Margaret Sanger,founder of PP. A real role model,that one? Sometimes..I wonder why I bother!!