Then you disgaree with the trainers and owners Ive spoken to that say soft tissue and rear end problems are defninitely occurring on this stuff.

Alright, I'll withold further judgment until a friend tells me how his horses are doing over the stuff. I didn't know that horses often slipped over the stuff or that the track broke away more easily. That would definitely cause soft tissue injuries.

....pulled stifles, pulled backs, etc....you know hat happenes to a horse when his pusher is sore? He ver compensates on the front end when he runs and the over-compensation causes front-end problems to follow....

And Joel, you knew that I knew this stuff:) I know that I am ignorant about some things, but I am not THAT ignorant:o .

yeah no way Todd knows what hes doing. That 23 mill hes earned this year is all a fluke.

this was my point mike

I know, I wasn't talking at you...I was making a general point to support concerns for hind end issues and how serious theyv were...:)

Its why they train fine and seem to be sounder when training over it, as opposed to the running itself.
But they aren't going breakneck full speed in the mornings. Afternoons are another story.

The horses may use just as much effort, but the fact is that they are not hitting the ground nearly as hard because the surface has so much give it it. If that were the case, horses would suffer just as many or more injuries on the dirt surfaces. Concussion injuries often involve soft tissue. I know because I've been there and done that. Therefore, this is not the reason that soft tissue injuries would occur on the synthetic surface. I may agree with Cunningham Racing in the end too, but not for the reasons that you stated because he stated different reasons. In no way can training over polytrack equate to swimming in a swimming pool. Totally different. There is no resistance when training over a synthetic surface.

The main reason he stated as to why the synthetic surface would hurt a horse's soft tissue is the same reason that helps my jumpers over the surface so much. The horses tend to shift more of their weight to their hind end because they have so much bounce, which is why trainers are now seeing more soft tissue problems in the horse's hind ends when training over this surface. I didn't know that trainers were seeing more problems in the hind ends of their race horses while training and racing on the surface. Also, I didn't know until he told me that the horses slip over the surface easily and the surface breaks underneath them. Those are other reasons for the soft tissue injuries in the hind end. Now, Joel's claims make perfect sense...

I'm going to agree to disagree with you... it's tough to explain what I'm talking about on a message board in words.

I stand by my original opinion. I think that this surface will have a huge affect on the thoroughbred industry. Only time will tell what KIND of affect it will be, but I'm going to guess that it won't be a good one.

I'm out...

Oh, but I would love for you to try to explain how resistence that causes soft tissue injuries is created from a horse training over a synthetic surface that isn't my explanation, and how a horse training over a synthetic surface is like one swimming in a swimming pool. I would also love for you to explain how I am now 'wrong' in my explanation of how the soft tissue injuries are occurring in the muscles, tendons, and ligaments of a horses hind ends.

I don't feel the need to argue with you about this... evidently, you're in "attack" mode and I've learned from previous experience with you to say "Uncle."

By the way, I never said you were "wrong", and if I'm mistaken, please point out where I said that. I said that I DISAGREE, which means I see it in a different light.

Nope, not in attack mode. I just want to know why and on what specific topic that you disagree with me. Explain yourself. I disagreed with Cunningham Racing earlier, and he explained himself, and I changed my mind. I do that a lot. I am here to learn, not to argue... Then again, I've found it foolish over the past few months to disagree with someone who knew more than me on a given topic.

BTW, you sure did cry uncle in some of the other threads. LOL.:D

And I tried (several times) to explain what I meant, but my explanation wasn't to your satisfaction. I can't help that...

I had a totally different experience showing horses on the stuff than you have, so we are bound to disagree on it.

AAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can we please pretend for like 3 days that Polytrack was never invented?????!!?!?

How bout da Bears? Who would you rather own this year, the Bears, Colts or Saints?

OMG that would be too cool... Steve?? how bout it?

OK, I don't think I have ever heard that Polytrack is suppose to keep horses from breaking down. If you have a sore, bad traveling horse, running it over foam rubber isn't going to make a difference. I heard Polytrack is a much more giving surface that dirt. I notice that you don't see the "jolt" in the horses' legs and shoulder (as you do on dirt surfaces) when they are running over it. I have seen horses get sore in behind, bow tendons etc. on dirt surfaces also. Really, sooner or later, if a horse doesn't get a break from training, they are eventually going to become sore, regardless of the surface. Perhaps with the Poly, the horses take a little longer to get sored up? I am still on the fence about this surface. Last winter, the only complaint I heard from Turfway was the kick back from the track. But supposedly that was taken care of. Maybe Keeneland still needs some tweeking? Another thing, if so many trainers are complaining about Poly, why was Turfway full of horses training this summer? I have a friend that's a jockey, and she said River Downs was a "ghost town" compared to the year before. I have heard trainers bitch about dirt surfaces forever. So what's the dif?

could be another example of horses moving from one surface to another, after having gotten used to the first and adjusted to it.

didn't more of arlingtons and del mars breakdowns occur earlier in the meet, not later?? i believe that was the case, and it was felt by many that the change in tracks was the primary culprit.

maybe trainers just need to be a lot more patient when introducing a horse to a new surface.

was ken delay there too???

Both tracks were worked on due to the high percentages of breakdowns. Which maybe the reason for less breakdowns towards the end of the meets, but I don't seem to recall any let up at Del Mar and I really didn't pay much attention to Arlington.