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jms62 10-01-2014 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000201)
The horse was finished before the final turn. I doubt that being in the 3 path would have made 3/8ths of a mile difference.

Lets have an honest discussion here. In 80% of the races run in this country you have to consider what the jockeys effort level is going to be for certain horses. Longshots are often ridden with less than maximum effort. Dropdowns are often "carefully handled". Why do people think bug riders strting out get so many chances? They will let them run because often they dont know any better.

Do i think that it was a coincidence that Espinoza did what he did? No. But can we really start suspending people based on speculation? Because pushing a horse out an extra path or 2 on the turn isnt the crime that it has been made out to be.
I don't agree as a bettor but respect your opinion on this.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 1000202)
I don't agree as a bettor but respect your opinion on this.
Dont agree with what part?

I as a participant in most areas of the industry also have a hard time believing that anyone who bets and is disgruntled about a particular ride will get more than a brief few seconds of satisfaction when a rider gets a 7 day suspension. I mean are you rooting for him to get sunburned while lounging on the beach?

jms62 10-01-2014 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000204)
Dont agree with what part?

I as a participant in most areas of the industry also have a hard time believing that anyone who bets and is disgruntled about a particular ride will get more than a brief few seconds of satisfaction when a rider gets a 7 day suspension. I mean are you rooting for him to get sunburned while lounging on the beach?
What I gathered from your post is that I should just STFU and quite whining cause that is how things go. I feel the bettors were defrauded by a jock not even attempting to compete in the race. We don't agree and I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change my mind. So I can either accept the way things are or cut my handle even more than I already have.

10 pnt move up 10-01-2014 11:20 AM
There were a few shenanigans that went on in the JCGC, have heard very little in the way of any rulings from that race.

The two california trained horses had, well, questionable rides.

10 pnt move up 10-01-2014 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 1000205)
What I gathered from your post is that I should just STFU and quite whining cause that is how things go. I feel the bettors were defrauded by a jock not even attempting to compete in the race. We don't agree and I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change my mind. So I can either accept the way things are or cut my handle even more than I already have.
The game is falling apart yet the people in the industry keep telling us that there is nothing to see here, move along. Not picking on Chuck but racing has an image issue big time to go along with many other issues. Can you imagine if horses were floated to the 7 path on the first turn in every race as just part of race riding. If its such a great tactic why dont we see it done more?

Indian Charlie 10-01-2014 11:35 AM
Yes, the apologists for this sport are pathetic.

How come you don't see rides like that on the favorite, taking out a longshot??????


Espinoza is so obviously guilty, you can tell by watching him in the race, and how he has phrased his answers since.

MaTH716 10-01-2014 11:49 AM
David Grening ‏@DRFGrening · 12m12 minutes ago
Junior Alvarado was suspended 15 days by the stewards for Saturday's Gold Cup ride. He has 48 hours to decide whether or not to appeal.

my miss storm cat 10-01-2014 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000204)
Dont agree with what part?

I as a participant in most areas of the industry also have a hard time believing that anyone who bets and is disgruntled about a particular ride will get more than a brief few seconds of satisfaction when a rider gets a 7 day suspension. I mean are you rooting for him to get sunburned while lounging on the beach?
Another dismissive post.

It boggles the mind how anyone can defend the status quo.

10 pnt move up 10-01-2014 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaTH716 (Post 1000217)
David Grening ‏@DRFGrening · 12m12 minutes ago
Junior Alvarado was suspended 15 days by the stewards for Saturday's Gold Cup ride. He has 48 hours to decide whether or not to appeal.
15 days seems kind of weak honestly.

Benny 10-01-2014 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1000221)
15 days seems kind of weak honestly.
If he doesnot contest it, I believe it is cut in half.:o

10 pnt move up 10-01-2014 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny (Post 1000253)
If he doesnot contest it, I believe it is cut in half.:o
7 days, its totally worth it to ride reckless.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 1000205)
What I gathered from your post is that I should just STFU and quite whining cause that is how things go. I feel the bettors were defrauded by a jock not even attempting to compete in the race. We don't agree and I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change my mind. So I can either accept the way things are or cut my handle even more than I already have.

This idea that you have that every horses is 100% ridden to win every time is myopic. If you wont accept that then pretty much everything else you believe will be wrong as well.

A lot of people toss out the bettor card like you did here and whine that you arent betting anymore or have been disrespected. It is pretty weak.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1000209)
The game is falling apart yet the people in the industry keep telling us that there is nothing to see here, move along. Not picking on Chuck but racing has an image issue big time to go along with many other issues. Can you imagine if horses were floated to the 7 path on the first turn in every race as just part of race riding. If its such a great tactic why dont we see it done more?
I'm of the opinion that the way 36-1 shots are ridden is low on the list of racings ills. There are bad rides in hundreds of races a week. There have been bad rides for as long as racing has been around. This isnt new. Social media is new.

The way it seems to go now is whatever issue you guys have with racing gets thrown into the "game is falling apart" category, daring anyone in the business to defend it. I will say again when the stewards are being influenced by social media and the status of the horses in question you can really start wondering about image issues.

10 pnt move up 10-01-2014 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000302)
I'm of the opinion that the way 36-1 shots are ridden is low on the list of racings ills. There are bad rides in hundreds of races a week. There have been bad rides for as long as racing has been around. This isnt new. Social media is new.

The way it seems to go now is whatever issue you guys have with racing gets thrown into the "game is falling apart" category, daring anyone in the business to defend it. I will say again when the stewards are being influenced by social media and the status of the horses in question you can really start wondering about image issues.
I am in the opinion that the betting public has a better platform than they ever have in the past and thats why you actually see some movement when issues are brought to light, albeit at a snails pace in most cases.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by my miss storm cat (Post 1000218)
Another dismissive post.

It boggles the mind how anyone can defend the status quo.
What status quo? Are you of the mindset that every horse is ridden 100% to win every time? Seriously?

It boggles the mind that some cant understand what point I'm trying to make.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1000303)
I am in the opinion that the betting public has a better platform than they ever have in the past and thats why you actually see some movement when issues are brought to light, albeit at a snails pace in most cases.
The betting public is a quite diverse population and based on twitter and facebook a very vocal part of it is clueless despite the best efforts of many to try to give them a clue.

Naturally many people wind up following the clueless because what they say might sound good even though it is completely wrong.

It is for that very reason that racing is essentially doomed. Regardless of what racing does and what rules are passed most people are going to believe their preconceived notions anyway. Racing has done a miserable job educating people and even when smart guys like some of the visable public figures go out of their way to try to help educate people they are routinely savaged on social media for taking a stance that may not pan out.

Cannon Shell 10-01-2014 11:01 PM
The real irony is that in speaking to a bunch of trainers, officials, owners and jockeys I have found support for suspending Espinoza and support for not suspending him. Probably close to 50-50.

I can see if there was a pre existing warning, him getting days here. I could see it if the Stewards had been proactive against similar aggressive riding tactics recently.

I think they are simply punishing Espinoza because of grumbling about a popular horse (you know one of those that may "save" racing) and an unpopular trainer who almost benefited.

Stewards are generally bad enough already. If we start letting popularity bleed into the decisions...

Aly-Sheba 10-01-2014 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 1000221)
15 days seems kind of weak honestly.
I can't recall but did Rajiv get days for his ride in the 2011.Belmont where he screwed Mucho Macho Man because he got taken off the mount or when he cut off Gary Stevens going into the first turn in this year's Derby?

golfer 10-02-2014 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000309)
The real irony is that in speaking to a bunch of trainers, officials, owners and jockeys I have found support for suspending Espinoza and support for not suspending him. Probably close to 50-50.

I can see if there was a pre existing warning, him getting days here. I could see it if the Stewards had been proactive against similar aggressive riding tactics recently.

I think they are simply punishing Espinoza because of grumbling about a popular horse (you know one of those that may "save" racing) and an unpopular trainer who almost benefited.

Stewards are generally bad enough already. If we start letting popularity bleed into the decisions...
2 things here. #1, I can understand your concern, because if YOU were held responsible for the rides of Pedro Cotto Jr, you'd have every right to be worried about a lifetime suspension;)

But more importantly, IMO, literally seconds after the Cali race ended Jerry Bailey called out Victor Espinoza's ride. Now, some may not like Jerry Bailey, but I think it would be difficult to call him clueless about race riding?

jms62 10-02-2014 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 1000299)
This idea that you have that every horses is 100% ridden to win every time is myopic. If you wont accept that then pretty much everything else you believe will be wrong as well.

A lot of people toss out the bettor card like you did here and whine that you arent betting anymore or have been disrespected. It is pretty weak.
1. It was a graded stakes race almost universally you can expect an effort from a horse in that type of race instead of him used as a battering ram.

2. Weak? Another trainer saying **** the bettors. Nice.


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