Originally Posted by eurobounce

Showing up is a very good horse. But it is a huge step up when facing older horses (especially older horses of this caliber). Even though the "improvement factor" is much better for 3 years than older horses the jump up in class is, often times, too difficult for 3 year olds. A good example is Lady Of Venice. She looked good at Churchill and she looked good at Saratoga only losing by a shrinking length. If she ran that same race against horses or her own age, she wins by 5+ lengths.

I dont think this board is pro-cacique and anti-showing up. I think the board is using experience and logic when assessing the two horses. But like Gander said, we will see in 48 hours.

Originally Posted by Revolution

i can assure you that go deputy, relaxed gesture and showing up are all as good as cacique. cacique has no more grade 1 wins than any of the others. the horse with the upside is showing up but i think showing up and cacique will be overbet. go deputy is very dangerous here. i really think go deputy is better than his stablemate english channel right now. i think showing up would have been an easy winner but ramazutti will ensure us of a nice pace.

i have to admit i love turf racing much more than the dirt racing. this is an excellent race.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I have had Planets Aligned his last two races. His race on the 29th was wonderful. I think he has a little better competition in this one. But the horse is in great form. I will not be betting this race because it is hard to win 3 in a row. But I love this horse.

Originally Posted by Revolution

i have seen all of these horses and english channel and cacique are not as talented as showing up or after market. that is just my opinion. i like horses that are improving and both showing up and after market are making major improvements each race. they are both running bigger numbers each race. the older horses have not improved at all this year.

both 3yr olds are the two best american turf horses in my opinion, i am just not sure which one is better. i really like after market though and i loved showing ups win at arlington off those fast fractions. the older horses were very entertaining beating each other in their rivalry but none ever proved to be anything special. i do not think any of the older horses could ever compete with the europeans.

Originally Posted by deltaforce97

I don't think Ramazutti setting a solid pace will hurt Showing Up. From what I have seen, he doesn't need the lead. The only time he wired a field was at Arlington.

Anybody know if it is going to rain? A soft turf moves Relaxed Gesture way up.

Originally Posted by Revolution

i can assure you that go deputy, relaxed gesture and showing up are all as good as cacique. cacique has no more grade 1 wins than any of the others. the horse with the upside is showing up but i think showing up and cacique will be overbet. go deputy is very dangerous here. i really think go deputy is better than his stablemate english channel right now. i think showing up would have been an easy winner but ramazutti will ensure us of a nice pace.

i have to admit i love turf racing much more than the dirt racing. this is an excellent race.

Originally Posted by Gander

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

Originally Posted by Gander

If Cacique does lose this race, he surely will have an excuse. Every time he loses its because of something or another. Its never because he wasnt the best horse.

Kev, while I am not really for or against Go Deputy being "better" than English Channel, you can certainly make a case that the two are at least in the same league as far as right now goes. Go Deputy beat Relaxed Gesture as decisively as ENglish Channel beat him last time they ran. Go Deputy looked real good in the Sword Dancer and would have been very tough for any horse to handle that day. I would say the jury is still very much out although English Channel is more accomplished.

Originally Posted by Gander

Kev- I would try Chantal's horse 'Owns the Place' in the back end of the late double. This horse has the best speed and because of the jockey will get away at an overlay.

Didnt Cacique also have a huge excuse (bad ride, way wide?) in his first race this year out in California when he lost to Milk it Mick? Or am I getting him mixed up with somebody else? Pardon me if I am, I dont have Cacique's PPs in front of me.

And didnt everybody say teh only reason he lost the Million was Tin Man and his crawling pace? Isnt that an excuse?

Originally Posted by Gander

Kev- I would try Chantal's horse 'Owns the Place' in the back end of the late double. This horse has the best speed and because of the jockey will get away at an overlay.

Didnt Cacique also have a huge excuse (bad ride, way wide?) in his first race this year out in California when he lost to Milk it Mick? Or am I getting him mixed up with somebody else? Pardon me if I am, I dont have Cacique's PPs in front of me.

And didnt everybody say teh only reason he lost the Million was Tin Man and his crawling pace? Isnt that an excuse?

Originally Posted by Gander

His victory on the Belmont Stakes undercard was a very clever ride in my opinion.

He wired the field going slow fractions. Yes it was very clever. Relaxed Gesture was far and away the best horse that day, closing tons of ground with Grey Swallow to lose by a head bob, besting English Channel who sat a cozy trip just off Cacique.