Seems like one could simply write about the horses they think are champs.Why write negative stuff about Grade One- Winning 3 year olds(Jazil,Brother Derek,and WLA.)

If a horse carries a reputation that isn't near as good as his true ability - then isn't that classified as somewhat of a fraudulant or misleading notion to non-horse racing experts?

Food for thought.....

The best ever are horses like Funny Cide and Giacomo who capture so much national attention when they win the Derby and...well...I won't get into the rest but you know the story.....:D

True....negativity is not great to report, but this runs deep because i knew this horse wasn't legitimate all along when EVERYBODY in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses over his withers before he even ran in the Derby (at least in the Spring they were)...

I'm pretty close to this situation knowing some of the connections, and watching him race and train I just knew he was "just a horse" - so to speak.....

Didn't mean to spread too much negativity...God knows we indeed do have more negativity in this game than any other game in the world....

Lot of racehorses born each year.Just my opinion,but I think Grade One Winners aren't respected enough.One could own/breed horses for a long time without coming up with one like these that have been mentioned here.I kid around with Gander about claimers like All Hail Stormy etc.,but at some point,I think horses should be respected for their big wins(like the Grade One stakes.)I know many of us have to try to beat them,but it is hard for me to see a Grade One Winner as a fraud.Those two (G1 WINNER,and Fraud) don't seem to belong together.

Oh please!
Nothing like a little exageration and chest thumping about how you alone knew that BD was a fraud and EVERYBODY in the racing world was duped. Joel you act as if this horse was 1-10 odds in the derby. What was he? 7-8 to one? To say that everyone in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses oner his withers, shouldn't he at have been the favorite in the derby?

Hell, i'm not close to the connections like you and i had very big doubts about his derby prospects, as did many others. I'd refer to this type of situation as discovering an underlay, not as a fraud and it does not mean that the horse is not legitimate.

(Just noticed i used three "nots" in that last sentence. Well you know what i mean!)

If we're to believe this statement, then how do you explain the premise of this thread you started?

Namely that Brother Derek is a fraud, and that you never liked him.

How in gods name is that not negative?

Well guys, looks as if "little Lord Fauntleroy" is mad beacuse he can't fool anyone into believing he actually knows what hes talking about anymore.
Little Lord and daddy will never own a grade one winner like Wonder Lady Anne L. And Little Lord Fauntleroy will forever have his nosed pressed up against the big shot window, slobbering over shiekhs an singing their praises, always hoping someday that he could actually accomplish something within the game, instead of just talking about it. But I think the odds of that are indeed slim.
Fraud is what I would label someone who can't ever handicap a race or predict a winner BEFORE it occurs. Fraud is someone who bashes guys like pletcher while acting indignant. A fraud a is a guy who bashes grade one winning horses while having never actually accomplished anything within the game whatsoever.
Someone wake me up when this "horse racing analyst" actually accomplishes something within the game, like Brother Derek's connections have.

By the way, anyone who is actually IN THIS GAME, knows that you never bash another horse or connections who has actually accomplished anything in this game. Its so very hard to ever get a grade one win, and they can't take em away.
In the Gold may have fallen off form this year, shes in a money allowance today. But last year she was grade one placed in some nice races and then won the Grade One Gazelle. Shes worth millions as a broodmare(going rate right now, rock bottom appraisal on grade one winning mares is 2.5 mill) and gave her owner breeder Live Oak a huge thrill.
There isn't any difference. Shes not what she was, but you can't take away what shes accomplished. Of coure Little Lord doesn't know anything about accomplishment, only flapping his gums. And thats what he will forever be doing, writing about the accomplishemnts of other people, after the race is over with.
Way to disprespect the owner and trainer of a grade one winner Joel, especially since the ****ing guys trains froom a wheelchair. You have zero class, zilch, none at this time.

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

See, ArlJim? I was right about Lava Man and Invasor. And you were right that Bernardini is somehow exempt from the "fraud" label, regardless of whether he gets beaten next time out. I loved this CR line, comparing Bernardini to Brother Derek:

"Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them...."

It reminds me of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's remark on defining pornography: "I know it when I see it." That may be the most laughed about Supreme Court quote in history, but CR is trying to outdo him. He can tell "fraudness" when he sees it.

--Dunbar

Well, sometimes the kettle indeed has a couple extra coats on it as well as a seemingly continuous self-applying shellac function.

And, one does reap what one sows.

Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal.

I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win?

I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.

Thank you for posting that.

--Dunbar

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.

It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds.

The California horses were way overhyped.


For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing.

I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there.

I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud.

The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned.

Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another.
Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin.
Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?

the whole point is that he doesn't want to have to mediate a 'knowledge off' between the two of you--if you can't get along why not ignore each other--esp. when both of you have much to add to the site when you are not hurling insults @ each other.
Steve is not running a pre-school he's running a website.

Nostra,
Flower Alley is not a fraud, and you will note that after his last race I completely backed off of backing him as a possible HOY.
The explanation I received after his loss was pretty much confirmed yesterday.
I was told by someone who I trust that he had no injury, that he simply had lost his mental desire to put out or perform.
It happens more often than you think, most often with fillies or mares. Lady's Secret even had this occur at the end of her career, bolting on a turn in an allowance type race and refusing to run. Storm Flag Flying was another, after her incedible BC performance she had the potential to become one of the all the time greats in many people's minds(myself included). When she returned at age three they just couldnt get her to really try. She did win a grade one up here at age 4, accomplished after stalking one of the most bizzare speed duels in history and barely getting up in a last 1/4 in :27(or thereabouts).
We don't know the story with Brother Derek yet. Was he injured? Did something go awry? Or is he just another on a long list of three year olds who were mentally or physically fried(or both) because of the grueling triple crown route?
He was never my favorite horse. I always said I admired his talent but that I thought he had no shot in the Derby. I didn't jump on this thread to jump ugly on Joel just because he started it. Had anyone else started it I would have said the same thing to them. I bash trainers all the time, probably always will. But I tend to appreciate the accomplishments of animals who win a grade one race. Its so hard you just can't believe it. Lansdon told me while he was up here, that its quite conceivable(and likely) that although he is young, that he may never have another grade one winner. He said just getting to a grade one is so very hard. One of the things I like about him is his sense of honesty. he told his wife last year while standing in the winner's circle at the Champgane to enjoy this, because it won't happen again(winning two grade ones in a row with the same horse).
If the thread title had been "Brother Derek not as good as thought earlier", or Hendriks did a lousy job with the horse for this race, I would probably have agreed. But fraud is an awful harsh word for a horse who accomplished and did as much as he did this year. I defended Lawyer Ron the same way earlier this year, even though I thought he had zero shot in the Derby. You have to appreciate a horse who goes out there and does the things that he did.

So 15 guys on this thread bash Joel's thread and I'm the only one whos gotta bear the brunt of it? hell i wasn't even the first one to jump on him, and many on here bashed him harder than I did. It wasn't personal(even though I'm sure everyone thinks it was), if gander had started the thread I woulda jumped on him as well. Gander is a friend of mine for 20 years and he starts threads like this often in the past, and you can see I was often the first one to jump on him and say thats out of line.

it goes beyond just this thread--you and I both know that....