ummmm o.k.:confused:

What's confusing? Please provide the list of horses that have been exceptionally talented on both turf and dirt in the past.

Country Star showed in her debut that she was very talented on grass. In her subsequent starts she has run well ( OK in the Alcibiades and well on Sunday ) on artificial surfaces that are often very kind to turf horses. Now, dirt horses also often handle the cushion, so she may well like dirt too, but history says her excellence is likely to only encompass one real surface.

This is intriguing, as I'm really clueless when it come picking out these little nuances. Question?

I've looked at CS' races very closely, focusing, in particular, on the way she finishes ---is she straight, does she stay on the correct lead, when under pressure, etc. There's been vast improvement from race to race. So much so, that I wouldn't put much past this filly --though I could be wrong.

Now, since you're able to posit that this horse won't handle the dirt, I wonder what your opinion was/is concering the dirt ability of Mushka and Backseat Rhythm; the latter finishing ahead of CS on the turf; and the former behind her; both getting worse trips than CS. When watching that race, or looking at your figures for that race, were you able to project that BR would run a good 2nd behind Indian Blessing in the Frizette and that Mushka would win the Demoiselle in (perfect trip) visually impressive fashion?
Of course, you might not think much of these two and when opining that CS won't be very good on the dirt, you level exceeds that of these two presently.

Additionally, what were your thoughts about Lear's Princess (poly, turf, dirt)? Did you think she would handle the dirt and, if so, what was the difference in her running style?

Backstreet Rhythm had already demonstrated she was OK on the dirt. I realize her races may not look good on paper but there were extenuating circumstances and what she really needed was more distance ( I did make her a hidden horse on Playing to Win off her Saratoga races ). However, her suck up second in the Frizette was not nearly as good as her turf race and while I can understand them trying dirt stakes for obvious reasons I think, based on her maiden win, her real future lies on the lawn.

As for Mushka, she ran much better on the dirt ( albeit a wet track ) in her maiden win than her turf debut and as you pointed out she benefited from a great setup in winning the Demoiselle ( though she still ran OK ). Just because two OK dirt horses happened to run in the turf maiden race of Country Star's hardly increases the likelihood that she's a turf horse. I can't understand your logic in that....if that's what you're implying.

I will say that Lear's Princess, however, is a great example of a horse that is talented on all surfaces. She is much more the exception than the rule.

Can you tell me, and I really am interested not trying to be a wise-ass, what makes you think she does not run like a dirt horse?

NT

You lost me. All I'm trying to understand is how one can determine from turf and poly efforts that a horse won't be as good on the dirt.

I understand....I was just confused.

CJ is capable of doing anything. I am capable of little.

I didn't say there were no horses....just not that many. The odds are substantially against it and at a short price I will take my chances against Country Star in her dirt debut....especially if it's a tough race.

Country Star is by Empire Maker (no dirt slouch) - Unbridled - Fappiano - Mr. Prospector (dirt sire) combined with Le Fabuleux (France). Toussauds family has turf influence through El Gran Senor, but she produced both G1's Empire Maker and Chester House. Dams side, Seattle Slew over a full brother of Mr. Prospector? Plenty of dirt in that pedigree.

As far as her running style, I'll take powerful, long, low strides as perfect for a dirt horse anytime. She looks alot like her sire in that respect.

We'll see. I hope she does turn out to be something amazing.

As an aside, Barbaro started on the turf, and against the conventional thought of his pedigree, did just fine on dirt. With a different running style than Country Star.

Yeah I hope to see her run alot. And one thing is for sure, Frankel likes to run them alot.

Oh sheesh who the hell am I trying to kid? Nevermind.

I don't think anyone can really know what to expect from Country Star when she runs on dirt. Her pedigree projects well enough for dirt - and Frankel's most recent interview gave the impression he thinks she will handle it well - but it's hard not to forget a horse like the Frankel trained Cantabria bet to odds-on favortisim in last years Grade 2 El Encino.

It was her dirt debut, and she was being bet on the basis of a performance over the HP cushion track. She ran a very non-threatning 5th, always struggling.

From a gambling standpoint - I don't want her first time she runs on the dirt. Would she be a bet against? - because she projects fairly well to handle the surface - I don't think she has to be.

As for the soon to be champ,

Indian Blessing is a natural sprinter - and a very good one at that - who's managed to win a pair of soft division Grade 1 races at distances beyond her scope despite staggering away the final quarter mile on fumes.

A lot can happen between now and the Oaks - but riders on horses of all styles rarely bide there time in very important races when accomplished horses like IB are free running on the lead - if IB can sustain or somehow raise her repute from now until the Oaks ... you get the feeling that the race could have a collapse scenario... and some horse who fits the profile of a Lemons Forever (beyond talentless - but always grinding) will run a race that will make such a horse look far better than she really is.

2/5ths in fact.

Though Zenyatta had the kind of trip that just doesn't seem to ever lead to good results out there - I thought her performance was clearly more impressive analytically - but being a late season 3yo compared to a late season 2yo ... that's not exactly saying a whole lot.

Zenyatta is another who's never run on dirt - and has a pedigree that seems to project very well to both surfaces.

From a dirt standpoint - she's by a proven dirt horse and dirt sire in Street Cry and is a half sibling to multiple Grade 1 winner Balance.

From a turf standpoint - her sire Street Cry is an Irish bred son of a multi Euro Group 1 winner out of a Irish Oaks winning dam. Zenyatta's dam Vertigineux won both of her career starts going 10 furlongs on the turf, Vertigineux is kin to several euro stakes winners - and the only other two foals she's dropped, Where's Bailey and Balance . both won on the turf.

greinton kicked ass on both turf and dirt!

what a monster that one was.

When I say she doesn't run like a dirt horse, I'm not talking about her stride or staying low or anything like that. She doesn't appear to me to have that high cruising speed that is so successful in dirt races. She has the perfect running style for turf and synthetic, not for dirt.