Well said "Redneck".:tro:

Oh now wait one moment sir.
Our progressive tax system... you just said rich people
are not willing to pay their fair share. How much more do
you want the wealthy to pay, since it is so bad now?

So I need to know what wealthy is.
And what % of their income they should pay.
Thats all I want.

Hell I would pay a 50% tax rate to live in this country.
I would have no problem with that. I would adjust. Get rid
of a car, etc... But I dont take
major risks to try and build the ecomony like some "rich"
business men that could become very poor in an instant.

BTW about 68% of the taxes I am payed comes from homeowners
in our school area, which is clearly not wealthy. So I, in fact, pay
myself along with my neighbors.
About 29% comes from the State. Supposedly the Lottery.

Yes Zig, neither of you believe in a progressive tax system, and that's(the progressive tax system) the only thing keeping this country from being a total sh-i-thole. You think it's cool to have such a difference between the rich and the middle class. It isn't. Any further separation between the 2 is gunna be very ugly. You don't get that. Never have, and never will. I know that going in(for both of you.) So, on economic stuff I never pay much attention to you two. To me, neither of you will ever comprehend the weaknesses inherent in any free market system. They aren't nearly as much about hard work(which is what you both think they are about) as they are about who has control of the results from hard work. They are flawed systems, and you both seem to think those flaws will work themselves out on their own. They don't. All these things you see done (and you think are unfair to the rich you adore) are just attempts to correct the natural flaws in this economic system. It's a juggling act. If you ignore those flaws, you will have just rich n' poor. If you restrain the system too much, then you'll get poor overall production. The answer, however is not to just do nothing(and allow a flawed system to result in just 2 types of economic classes.) You bother encourage that, and it's ill.

So in essence what you are saying is that the quality of living has actually gone DOWN in this country for most. You are now saying that this family of four has to live in a townhouse and work multiple jobs in order to make it work even though they are educated and skilled.

Again, whats wrong with this picture?

All this talk is making me rethink spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on one year old thoroughbreds...

i gotta go to sleep.

Goodnight. its been fun.

I'm not saying that at all. I am just saying that more people need to make an effort to live according to their means. I really don't think that is asking too much. How much did they think they were gonna make being school teachers? And what is wrong with living in a townhouse?

Seriously this family could make it easy here.
Especially if they teach science or math.

We are almost having to pull old drug dealers who
can add out of the ditches and put them in classrooms.

And my neighborhood has one section of nice townhouses.

I get the feeling this family needs to take a step
back and look at the big picture. They are not middle
class in your region. As I would not be.

Nothing is wrong with living in a townhouse. But isnt that a little cramped for a family of four? And how much do you think townhouses go for around here?

Beyond that, your point is that people have to live more within their means. I agree. My point is what is within their means is far less than what it use to be and what it should be in relationship to the growth of our economy and productivity over the last thirty years. And why is that?

Supply side was supposed to mean everyone shared in the wealth and the country as a whole would do better. Can you say that is the case?

[quote=pgardn]Seriously this family could make it easy here.
Especially if they teach science or math.

We are almost having to pull old drug dealers who
can add out of the ditches and put them in classrooms.

And my neighborhood has one section of nice townhouses.

I get the feeling this family needs to take a step
back and look at the big picture. They are not middle
class in your region. As I would not be.[/QUOTE]

There...i got you to say it. I know you arent partisan and im not picking on you. But you said exactly what i have been hammering at.

Dual income, college educated with a skill that is vital to the community and they arent middle class. What does that tell you?

No, they aren't willing to pay their fair share. They have to be forced to pay it. I am not saying we have to go over 50%. I have given everyone here an example of where this system is off the tracks, and sucking the blood of the poor and the middle class. That's when the oil companies take 40cents a gallon n' pocket it each time people put gas in their tanks. I am not necessarily saying the price people pay is incredibly out of whack, but they are making 10% profit no matter if costs $2.50 a gallon, or $4.50 a gallon. There is no competition. Not a free market where other companies can cut that profit in half to try to compete. Just suck, suck, suck blood from the poor n' middle class to the tune of 10 bil a quarter per company(regularly.)
Not only that, but they get tax breaks while the rape is occuring. Then , you hear, well stockholders are making money...So, it's not just the oil companies doing good. That's just garbage. The average poor or middle class couple is getting they a-s-s eaten up by these oil companies. It's a flaw in our economic system, and it's been allowed to continue. That's the kind of devastation you and Zig don't understand, and never will. You believe it's a system where ya just work harder and harder and things will work themselves out. They don't. This needs correction. It's a protected monopoly, and it is the way this economic sytem would look all over the country if we didn't have a progressive tax system, and other controls in place.

[quote=dalakhani]your area is far from the norm, very far. as for housing, i know there are nice areas, probably not in fairfax, that they could get into. but perhaps they really want to live in fairfax, that's their choice.
by the same token, two teachers down here are living high on the hog. so, for every example you could give according to one of the most expensive areas in the country, no doubt most of us could give examples of how it's not the case. thing is, some think i have a 'distorted' viewpoint, because i live in arkansas. but i was born and raised in maryland, lived in cali, florida, and even overseas before moving here, to missouri, and then back here. in other words been there, done that. if you've lived only in that area, of course that's all you know-kind of like people who have never left here, they think it's all the same as here-couldn't be further from the truth.

[quote=Danzig]I have lived in other areas and im not foolish enough to think that it isnt different in other areas. I realize that our housing prices are an extra burden. But I know that this isnt the only area where the middle class is getting squeezed and i know that there are other challenges that people in other areas face.

The national median household income is about 50k per year. 50k! Less than 20% our population makes over 100k.

So lets do the numbers on the median-50k. The median house price is 196k. Lets do the math for a family of four:

Income = 4166 per month so they take home 3000

PITI- 1500 per month (with all time low interest rates over thirty years)

Utilities- 400 per month

Gas for two cars- 400 per month

Insurance- 100 per month

Food for a family of four- 400 per month

car payment- 250

clothing- 100 per month

entertainment- 100 per month

Obama =

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

It is what it is ...

And the current administration ISNT socialist?

And your logic is to continue on with it?

I knew when I chose this profession it was not considered to be valued in a way I would be compensated monetarily. Education may be considered vital to you, but to the country as a whole, really only college is funded like it is really important. Junior college salaries stink in this state however.
The avg. US citizen thinks pre college education stinks. And in some states and especially poor urban areas, it really does. Texas just happens to have public schools as good as any private, because public education is funded mostly by the surrounding communities. And some communities are very interested in public education. They pass bonds, etc... for public schools.

If you think McCain will be a departure from Bush then you haven't been listening to what he is saying.

The truth, Cajun, is that both guys are soclialists. McCain is going to be the most left wing prez in history if elected. Well...right there with Bush.

Quick edit.

I didnt mean to say "the most left wing prez in history". I meant "the most left wing REPUBLICAN prez in modern history"

Just wanted to clarify.

Oh cmon. Nobody is willing to freely pay taxes. Everyone thinks they are taxed too much.
And dammit... Oil companies are going to make huge profits because they are dealing with a commodity WE are addicted to. Its just the infrastructure for oil use is so in place its very easy to use.
Just you wait.
If Congress passes that damn bill for tax credits dealing with alternative energy you will see an explosion of new ideas just like with PC's. There are people just waiting to jump on cleaner ways to produce enough energy to shove electrons through wires. We have so much excess wind energy in Texas they have to shut down the turbines because we dont have enough lines to transmit the energy. The new technology is ready to blossom. It needs a governmental shove to catalyze the swing.
People do not realize we are on the cusp of something very good. The best thing that could happen is what Coach Pants wanted. Oil skyrocketing to 200 a barrel. But OPEC understands that when gas went to 4+ bucks/gallon, people stopped consuming. They learned the upper limit at this time. And we see oil prices dropping back down to close to 100/barrel. I suspect production levels will aim to keep it about right there so people will keep on the crack oil addiction.

Dude, what are you talking about?
The current administration is many things, but they are hardly socialists. With their heavy emphasis on deregulation, they aren't even remotely close to being socialists. Now, they ARE sometimes close to looking like Mussolini-style fascists, but that is something completely different.

Of course, Obama isn't close to being a true socialist either. Does he favor a more Keynesian approach than the current administration? Sure. But the world isn't neatly divided into either the Milton Friedmans or the Karl Marxs. There are a lot of shades of grey.

Is the idea of bailing out wall st with public funds socialist?

Is the idea of a "stimulus package" socialist?

Is the idea smart growth socialist?

Is the idea to build 1300 new power plants with government funds socialist?

Is the nationalization of 90% of the mortgage industry socialist?

...only on Tuesdays!

You lost me there. what does that mean?

Glad you finally saw the light! Only on Tuesday was a standard flim-flam line back in the day...a bit of levity

I assume you realize that the answers to all of your questions is actually, "NO."
By your definition, basically every Western Democratic government in the past 200 years has been socialist. At that point the word has lost all meaning. What steps has the administration taken to transfer real power in terms of transforming who owns the means of production? None. That pretty much means they aren't socialists.

I think your point is simply that the Bush administration has grown the size of the welfare state considerably, rather than cut it as conservatives proposed to do in the late 70s and 80s. In that sense you are correct, but that hardly makes them marxists. I guess it all comes down to how you define the word socialist, but your definition seems extremely broad.

This thread has spun wildly out of control. Why are we talking about socialism at all? Can we please get back to talking about how Sarah Palin is completely nuts?

As for socialism, what i have bolded would show that we have a different definition of the term "socialism". How can you say the answers to those questions are "no"? I suggest you read up on socialism. Start with Wikipedia's definition here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

It was posted above by Cajungator. It reads:

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. [1] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution, it being the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[2][3]

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs; libertarian socialists advocate co-operative worker ownership of the means of production; most Marxists (some inspired by the Soviet economic model), advocate centrally-planned economies. By contrast, Social-Anarchists, Luxemburgists, the U.S. New Left and various forms of libertarian socialism favor decentralized ownership via co-operative workers' councils and participatory planning.




Now how would many of Bush's policies not fit the term Socialism? ALL of the questions presented should be answered "yes". Do you realize that in Washington many conservatives call Bush "Red George"?

Bush is a socialist as is Obama. Definitely not a total socialist but certainly not a pure capitalist either. Thank God.

1. No, just stupid.
2. No, just smart.
3. No, you should build them
4. No, it already was. You just noticed it now.

STS, those are all socialist ideas because they run counter to the idea of free market capitalism. Any government intervention in a free market is by definition socialist.

And, prior to the credit crunch in august of 07, the mortgage market was far from nationalized. It was for the most part unregulated and thats what we are paying for now. You know...that whole subprime thing.

The percentage of mortgages closed in 2008 that are either agency or govt is over 85%. Prior to that, it was around 50%.

Having said all of that, I dont disagree with any of your positions on what the govt did in action. However, they were all socialist in theory.

First of all, you are off to a very bad start in using wikipedia as your source. It has zero credibility. Secondly, I assure you that no serious academic would ever categorize George W. Bush as a socialist. He's not even close.
If you just want to use pop-culture definitions of serious terms and quote sources like wikipedia instead of analyzing legitimate sources I guess that's okay.....but trust me, anybody that actually HAS "read up on socialism" understands that there is a HUGE difference between neoliberalism and socialism.
Am I shocked to hear that some Republicans in Washington call Bush "red George." Not at all. Since when do they understand anything about political philosophies? :D Again he has unquestionably grown the welfare state considerably, but trust me, that doesn't make him a socialist.

I hear you Miraja. I used Wikipedia because that is what Cajungator originally posted in describing Obama as a socialist. I agree with her-many of Obama's policies are socialist in nature.

So you don't like Wikipedia. Thats fine. How about these:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...20Encyclopedia

or

how about the DICTIONARY? I would say that is reliable. here is the link:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods



The dictionary kind of says that I am right. Unless I am missing something.

If you still disagree, can you post some support to what you are saying besides "trust me" and "i assure you". I dont mean to be snotty in this case (most of the time i do) but i am anxious to see how you can actually explain that the Fed's policies stated above ARENT socialist.

First of all let me say that this is probably the most boring discussion I have ever been involved in on this site.

But secondly, let me keep this boring conversation going a bit longer. It seems like your argument breaks down like this:
1) Socialists advocate increasing the size and power of the government.
2) The Bush administration has increased the size and power of the government.
Therefore.....George W. Bush is a socialist.
That is flawed logic, and I think an analogy from the world of horse racing might illustrate why:
1) Good racehorses win horseraces.
2) Pepper's Pride wins horseraces.
By your logic this would mean that Pepper's Pride is a good racehorse.....which of course, she is not.
Just because two things share common characteristics does not mean they are the same thing.

If you really are interested in learning about socialism, I would suggest reading either Lichtheim's The Origins of Socialism, or perhaps, Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (the name of the author on this one escapes me at the moment). Both books are a bit dated at this point (I think they were both written in the 70s) but I had to read them a few years ago and they both do a pretty good job of explaining what distinguishes socialism from other political/economic philosophies.

Actually, you are putting words into my mouth or rather you are trying to make it seem as if i said something that i didnt. Lets rehash because you have obviously dug yourself into a hole and you don't want to admit it. So...

Originally, I stated that George W. Bush is a socialist. You said that I am wrong. Fine. I then supported my contention with these rhetorical questions:


Is the idea of bailing out wall st with public funds socialist?

1. Is the idea of a "stimulus package" socialist?

2. Is the idea smart growth socialist?

3. Is the idea to build 1300 new power plants with government funds socialist?

4, Is the nationalization of 90% of the mortgage industry socialist?

To this you replied that the answer would be "no".

To that I provided a link to wikipedia. To this you question the validity of the info.

Then i Provided a link to britannica and The dictionary. To that you replied with nebulous banter that you somehow tried to relate to horseracing.




Do you want me to post the definition of socialism found in the dictionary and encyclopedia again and tell you how Bush has helped to govern in a socialist way? Or do you want to continue to talk in circles? Support your points or be done.

Anyone hear Obama last night on Letterman when talking about Bill Clinton?

"There's nobody smarter in politics"


:zz: :zz: :wf :wf

WEBSTER'S online definition of Socialism:

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods


Is the nationalization of the mortgage industry socialist? Miraja says NO.

But read the bolded. The govt is controlling, regulating, profiting and losing money on the price and availabilty of mortgages. Is that not socialist in nature? Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were privately owned agencies. In the blink of an eye, the govt took them over and is running them with PUBLIC FUNDS. HOW IS THIS NOT SOCIALISM?

Again, and I am trying really hard not to be a typical academic here, but providing links to on-line encyclopedias and dictionaries is not really proving much of anything. I gave you a couple of actual books that I have read that I think would educate you more on the topic if you are interested. Some ideas are complex and can't be fully reduced to one-sentence definitions. I know some journalists call Bush a socialist, but I can assure you that most serious academics would never classify the Bush administration as socialist. They just wouldn't. Now I realize I probably can't prove this to you since for you, proof seems to only consist of posting a link, but I suppose if you are really that interested you could try contacting some leading academics and asking them so you could see for yourself.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth at all with my analogy. I really see no reason for a discussion such as this to get this heated. I made the analogy because it seemed to me (and it actually still does) that you are equating all governmental activism with socialism (and also because I just like taking shots at Pepper's Pride). That definition of socialism just seems out of whack to me. By your definition, it seems to me like you would you categorize Henry VIII as a socialist. Do you really think that makes sense?

Also, you might want to look into the whole mortgage thing a bit more. Fannie Mae was founded as part of the New Deal, and was an official government agency for over thirty years. When it was later partially privatized (sometime in the early 1970s I think?) it was never truly a completely independent private company, so I don't know if your "blink of an eye" statement really works.
And perhaps more importantly, is it really that shocking?
Afterall, the United States Post Office has a statutory monopoly on mail delivery to private mailboxes. It is literally against the law for someone to start a business that would deliver packages to private mailboxes. The governmet is controlling, regulating, etc. all aspects of that industry, and for a large portion of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, held a legal monopoly on any sort of delivery service at all.
Does that mean that the early nineteenth-century government that authorized this monopoly (and put some private competitors out of business in the process) was socialist?
I guess my argument is that your definition of socialism seems so broad, that almost every government in history fits the description. At that point, does the word even have any meaning at all?

Also, if you wanted to move this discussion to PM, it would be fine with me. I can't imagine anybody else finding this stuff the least bit interesting.

Miraja-

Please dont mistake my rhetoric for anger and it wasnt my intention. Actually, I find discussions like these many times enriching as long as one can support one's position with "fact" or the closest thing available (now that is broad).

Let me clarify my position on Bush considering that was what led to this and perhaps you can come up with one yourself.

To say that Bush is in all ways "socialist" would be silly. Of course he isnt a complete socialist and i said as much earlier. However, I would dare say that he is the most socialist Republican president in the last 100 years and probably beyond.

You bring up an example of the US postal service. Fine. And you can probably think of a couple of other government ventures along the way that are socialistic in theory as well. But have you seen a Republican president that was THIS SOCIALIST? For Example:

-He committed 200 billion dollars of federal money to rebuild New Orleans after Katrina

-uncountable billions in smart growth

-negoitated a deal where an privately held bank Bank of America bought a privately held mortgage company-countrywide and gave Bank of America a sweetheart favor in exchange.

-negotiated a deal where a privately held bank JP MORGAN CHASE bought a privately held investment bank-Bear Stearns and guaranteed the deal with public funds.

-injected 150 billion dollars of public funds back into the economy with this bogus stimulus package.

-is currently shopping for a buyer for Lehman Brothers


-took over fannie and freddie to the tune of 100 billion each.

And this isnt a socialist administration in many ways?


Lastly, i thought it was especially ironic about you telling me to "get my facts straight" with the mortgage industry considering that i help run a bank and i actually have final say in the paper we portfolio or sell. LOL. For your info, FNMA and FHLMC were Quasi govt agencies. FAnnie was created in 1938 and was converted to a PRIVATE company in 1968 so that it wouldnt appear on the fed budget sheet. It was indeed a PRIVATE company that received ZERO federal dollars or guarantees until last weekend when the fed took over.

The statement that i bolded "it was never truly a private company" is patently false and just flat out wrong. It was a privately held corporation with a board and a ceo and it made PROFIT and gave out disgusting bonuses to its board members. The only real connection to the government was the "implied" guarantee on the conforming paper.

Blah...blah...blah...get your ass back in the avatar thread you started:D

dalakhani,
In my opinion, I think this basically comes down to a situation where I am using a narrow, academia-based definition of socialism, and you are using a broad, popular culture-based definition. That's fine. It doesn't really seem like we are making any headway in convincing each other, so it is reaching the point of being a completely useless conversation.
All I would add at this point is some questions similiar to what you asked earlier:

- Would a socialist advocate a tax cut that exceeded a trillion dollars where the wealthy were the overwhelming beneficiaries?

- Would a socialist advocate a state-based deregulation of the energy system which ended up meaning that utilities are no longer obligated by law to reinvest ratepayer money back into the transmission system, and instead replace that level of government planning with total reliance on "the market."

- Would a socialist advocate taking apart the state controlled social security system and replacing it with a privatized system?

I think you will agree that the answers to all of those questions is no.

Socialists are primarily interested in re-distributing wealth from capital to labor. Does Bush fit that description? Not even close. I think the massive tax cuts for the rich alone probably disqualify him from consideration.

You cite a bunch of examples where the administration has increased the role of the government. Nobody could disagree with that. They certainly are less concerned about limiting the size and scope of the federal government than any other Republican administrations since Teddy Roosevelt. On that front we certainly agree.
I just think that without a simultaneous committment to changing the fundamental economic power relationships in the country (where they seem to have the exact opposite goals in mind) the term "socialist" is inappropriate.
In the end though, it seems like it all comes down to semantics.

As for the Fannie May discussion, it seems to me like we are saying the same thing. It started out as a government organization. It was such for 30 years. Then it became a private company with, as you call it, an "implied guarantee" from the government. It was that "implied gurarantee" that I was referencing when I called it not a "truly private company." To me, that implied guarantee is fairly significant, and makes it (or I guess I should now say, 'made' it) fundamentally different that any private company without such a gurantee. I never meant to imply that it wasn't a company where those at the top made outrageous profits. They did. But it seems to me like the implied guarantee from the government was probably significant on that front. I just thought your earlier "in the blink of an eye" statement implied that the government became involved in this business for the first time ever this summer. That was the point I was trying to address.