Not in my mind. But perhaps that played into the decions of others to vote to cancel the card for the weekend. Believe me, Turfway has a long way to go to make the surface better--but I strongly believe what they have now is better than dirt with all the problems they are experiencing. People make not like a synthetic surface, but the numbers are better than it was when there was dirt.

Tell that to the 18 guys who put horses down in the worst December on record. Tell that to the 3 guys who vanned off last night.

How about the guys at Woodbine? BRUTAL

How about my babies that breezed up there and came back to CDT limping around. Get real man, stop pimping that ****. Its far from being the surface you guys want it to be.

Ive heard a steady retraction.....instead of being a great surface, its "better than what they had" Listen, you could run them out on 71 and it would have been better than what they had. Its hardly held up to what it is supposed to be, not even close.

Yeah and us 9-5 locals were hot about that becuase we missed seeing a nice race.

We have always bitched that their best cards top to bottom are on Tuesday, good business decision for them, but the fans that can only be on track Sat-Sun lose out....again.

Well I am one who have had 2 break down on the surface. And I have spoken to the ones that have had ones breakdown too. I hear your frustration and I hear theirs and mine. But again, compared to the dirt Turfway did have, Poly is better.

but is poly better than a good dirt surface?

depends on who you ask.

i really think the tracks with turf went to poly so they would keep full fields, and not lose handle. how much of the increased handle is because turfers didn't scratch at those tracks when it was wet????

Polytrack has never been about the horses. If it were about the horses they would have tested it extensively before installing it. That track was never tested in extreme cold, it was never tested period. Just because it handles some rain in England, doesnt make it "all weather" Of course as soon as Keeneland got involved it had credibility. Before that there were a lot of questions, but with an industry leader involved it was the greatest thing ever.

Any buffoon can see that track hasnt lived up to expectations. Whether you are pro poly, or anti poly, or really dont give a rats ass, you can tell the track isnt as advertised.

They need to address the issues instead of doing a song and dance. Its cold in Kentucky in February, apparnelty too cold to run through the weekend.

i am, and have been, anti poly. don't see a valid reason to change my mind at this time.

No I do not believe Poly is better than a good dirt track. But there is nothing wrong in trying something different. Turfway had 20 plus years to perfect the dirt surface and they couldnt. Why not give Poly 20 years????

If you want to try something different sell hotdogs for a buck

dirts been tried and true for how many years now? if dirt won't work in winter weather, they shouldn't have winter racing there. poly certainly hasn't stood up to the strain of the cold. sure hasn't made things warmer, or the weather milder.
i can see keeneland making the switch, it assures full fields when turf isn't usable.

NEWYORK RUNNING 25 degrees currently

Feels Like: 14°
Barometer: 29.96 in and falling
Humidity: 37%
Visibility: 10 mi
Dewpoint: 6°
Wind: W 12 mph
Sunrise: 7:04 am
Sunset: 5:16 pm

KENTUCKY NOT RUNNING 25 degrees currently

Partly Cloudy
Feels Like: 14°
Barometer: 29.98 in and steady
Humidity: 37%
Visibility: 10 mi
Dewpoint: 6°
Wind: WSW 14 mph
Sunrise: 7:44 am
Sunset: 6:02 pm

Guess the difference

hmmmm...

now isn't that interesting?

Yeah it really is isnt it?

Maybe we just care more about our jockeys in Kentucky.....

Bid you made some very good points in this thread. The same things I've been saying here. It's interesting too that Beulah Park ran today and if anything it was colder in Columbus than it was in Cincinnati.

The sad part is that Keeneland and company are running around hard selling the poly to other tracks while they know it has problems. Unscrupulous to say the least. Anything for a $.

there's a link on equidaily about turfway and poly. very interesting, and not quite the rah rah, cheerleading stuff i've seen before.

well i was supposed be at turfway running a horse today but luckily i was notified that races for the weekend were gonna be cancelled last night..........did suck tho cuz we had the m/l fav and a huge shot@winning

It really wasnt bad here today, it wasnt warm, but they have ran in a lot colder weather. NY ran, Beulah ran, Oaklawn wishes they woulda ran. Cold yes, cold enough to cancel, not a chance. The carpet was frozen and balling up in the horses feet, 3 were vanned off, and rather than have 5 or 6 vanned off through the weekend TWP made the right decision.

it said in the article i read that they are spraying wd-40 or cooking spray on the horses hooves to keep the track from balling up!
well, says on the can that there are many uses for that stuff...

Its balling up in their feet badly. The stuff is just a mess Danzig. If you watched the races yesterday there were multiple occasions when a horse took its self out of the running due to meteor sized, frozen poly, hitting them in the face.

here's a link to the article if anyone is interested:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...422/1077/COL02


didn't the poly company already come back once, after last years season, and re-work all of it? wonder if they have an extended warranty...

They came back and scratched 4 inches of carpet off the top, now they are all standing around, scratching their heads, wondering what to do next. Maybe one of the engineers from Polytrack can figure it out

i don't suppose you ever read the dilbert comic strip?!

I've only loosely read this thread, so please excuse me if I repeat something that's already been discussed.

Anyone -ANYONE- who thought/thinks Polytrack was going to be a "cure all" for racing's many problems is delusional. The synthetic surface is a step in the right direction, not a magic wand to solve all problems that be.

I saw talk about kickback - as if there wasn't any kickback when there was a dirt surface? I recall jockeys coming back bloody on the dirt surface after being whacked with frozen dirt clods - broken goggles, noses, etc. Horses came back with eyes swollen shut too. I've yet to see a single horse come back in bad condition because of Polytrack kickback. Get serious, folks.

If you would also recall, the dirt track also clodded up in their feet - worse than I've ever seen Polytrack. At least on this surface, spraying their feet with a no-stick cooking spray, or a silicon spray, seems to work OK.

Breakdowns are going to happen: Period. No matter what surface you run a horse over, there's going to be a breakdown. Anyone who thinks it's only the fault of the racing surface is - to be blunt - an idiot. Have we forgotten that sometimes (many times) trainers run their horses when they shouldn't have? The business is full of cheaters, don't forget that.

As far as the resurfacing goes, before they re-did the Polytrack, horseman were complaining because it was too slow (the name of the game is get there first no matter what the final time). It was tweaked, and now it's fast, a little harder than it previously was, and a little stickier, too. You'll never guess what the horsemen are complaining about now... IMO, it's either slower and safer, or faster and riskier... I'd prefer slow times and horses in one peice.

Those of who you think Polytrack is terrible for the game, etc. need to open your eyes and see the bigger picture. It's narrow, close-minded, ignorant people like you who help keep the game at the same shoddy level it's at. "It's been this way forever!" is one of my biggest pet peeves - nothing can change for the better if everyone's afraid to change because "it's been this way forever."

Change is here, and the industry needs it. It's going to take a lot more than a synthetic racing surface to fix horse racing. Better breeding, No Tolerance when it comes to medications, no muscle-enhancing steriods on young sale horses, etc. The list could go on. So the fact that there is a positive thing happening with the benefit of horse and rider in mind, and you people are "hating" on it...

The only good thing Poly has done is increased handle.

Its not holding up to weather, horses are coming back bad, the kickback is horrible, its clumping up and freezing, its uneven, and there have been a multitude of breakdowns.

Does the WD 40 come with the track or do the trainers need to buy that themselves?

At least Woodbine had the balls to admit the surface was having some problems, you guys over at Turfway are still trying to do a song and dance. Just face it, its not an all weather surface, its not what was expected.

Personally I get tired of hearing all the excuses out of Turfway. Its too cold to race, streets are bad, wind is up, etc.. Please just get the facts out to the public instead of pimping this stuff so they can make their own decision. I dont want Marty Collins, TWP, or Keeneland, deciding what my horses run on.

For the record the kickback, and balling in feet isnt even close to that of a conventional dirt track. Polytracks kickback, clumping, and freezing is something nobody has ever dealt with, INCLUDING TURFWAY. So much for all the testing the engineers put into Polytrack. Where did Marty Collins get his degree, MIT?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/...aro.php?page=1

i know some don't care for links posted, while others do-not sure how many who visit here visit equidaily, but i find it a good place to keep up with a lot of racing newsas it posts from all over the nation, as well as worldwide news-even has stuff from here on occasion. it's a daily routine for me, here many times, while also checking out t'bred times, drf, bloodhorse...

at any rate, the link above is from an article that ran in paris. eye opening stats about how racing here compares to worldwide, as well as a few sentences on that frequent topic of poly-that bit alone was something i thought many would find of interest.

Welcome to the forum Champali Chick! Your views are almost like mine but I am in the minority here so please hang around. You sound like you have some actual experience with this and are not just firing shots with an agenda.

Around here it is assumed that the installation of Polytrack would solve all problems, end all breakdowns, and never need any maintenance as if it was some kind of miracle substance. It is also mentioned that it would be better now to just give up and go back to dirt at Turfway even though these problems were even worse with the dirt at Turfway.

I look forward to hearing more from your perspective.

The re-worked it extensively over the summer. Scraped the top layer and put down a new layer with Spandex remnants and also stripped off plastic coverings from wire. Where they dig this **** up from is beyond me? I mean, who in their right mind would possibly think of Spandex and stripped off plastic wire covering? Unbelievable.

It did fairly well in the fall season for a brief time but it's a disaster now.

Get real Champali Chick. Poly was sold as a miracle surface last year.

At this point at least Woodbine should purse legal action against Keeneland, Martin Collins LLC, et. al. -- Turfway really can't sue because they are half-owned by KEE and as such they must participate in the fraud.

Sell me a track for $8 million or even $2 million and let me have the kind of problems Woodbine has had. I'd guarantee a lawsuit that would shut down Martin Collins LLC for good.

Woodbine needs to wake up.

Th people at Woodbine admit that they have had more problems than what was anticipated, but that the new surface is better than the old one.

Maybe they meant it was better than the trot track they ran half the meet on

Its certainly not better than their old standard dirt track, its not even in the same breath.

Woodbine isnt real happy with Collins or Keeneland

"Real" is my middle name, didn't I tell you that? ;)

That's interesting. I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about Polytrack being the "end all, be all" of horse racing. However it was "sold" is irrelevent. Did YOU believe Polytrack would be a miracle that would: End breakdowns, act as a vanishing cream for kickback, and oh heck, while we're at it, end world hunger?

I've experienced Turfway before Polytrack's installation, and speaking from the experience of the few barns I've worked in, the horses are coming back in better shape this time around than when the dirt surface was down.

I'm not saying I think Polytrack is terrific right now - obviously they've run into some kinks. With any new surface, problems should be expected to rise. As I said in my earlier post, horsemen complained about Polytrack being too slow - it was resurfaced (and by the way, during that process, more sand was added, which is the biggest change) and is now running more like a dirt track. It's clodding more like a dirt track, kicking back more like a dirt track, etc.

When Turfway had the dirt surface, the biggest issue was the "freeze and thaw" process. The racetrack would freeze, and then during the day, parts of it would thaw, some would thaw more than others, and the result was a horribly dangerous surface to race over. Since Polytrack's installation, the freeze and thaw matter has been totally moot.

As I mentioned before, breakdowns will happen even if you run on a surface made of Serta mattress'. There are horses on every backside across the country who have no business running, yet somehow their "trainers" get them to the races. Eventually, that catches up to the horse and something will give way.

The industry is making an effort to improve the game for the athletes (horse and human), and it's a step in the right direction. Once again, I mentioned in my above post that there are many evils in this game, but Polytrack isn't one of them.

Actually Champ Ali, it makes a big difference how it was marketed. When you market a surface as "all weather" requiring "little or no maintenance" then in the same breath rip 4 inches of cat pissed rug,spandex, and tires off the top something doesnt jive. They have tried everything to right that surface, and they just cant do it....Know why? Because they didnt do the appropriate testing before they installed it. They didnt know what tearing 4 inches off would do, they didnt know what bad weather would do, they didnt anticipate 100 yards of frozen polyblocks being kicked back, they didnt think it would be clumping, freezing, uneven, and dangerous. They didnt think about much more than running dates when they laid that ****. They thought about full fields, increased handle, and more dates. Do you think for one second the horeses best interest was in mind, PUHLEASE. They are breaking down with a steady frequency, they are having major problems, its about time to be honest with the general public. The horsemen know there are issues, managment knows there is issues, its irresponsible of Keeneland to continue marketing this surface as all weather.

Reading your posts is a very tiring process.

I don't post in this thread with the idea of changing your mind - it was would an endless project in getting you to cut the attitude out of your posts, let alone changing their tune all together.

Your opinion on the synthetic racing surface is going to remain the same whether I argue back and forth with you or not. In all honesty, if your opinions on this subject are so strong, why don't you send letters to those who have the power do anything about it.

Although, when you send those letters, I would leave out the sarcasm attitude. It's frowned upon, usually.

Probably because it would be a waste of perfectly good ink and paper...?

As we all should know by now....the vast majority of the "powers that be", in this game, are notoriously incompetent hacks....who can't get out of there own way.

Im not making you read them.

Like Drugs said, it would be a waste of my time to write. Itll take a few more horses being crippled up or cancelled dates before they start to reassess the situation.

Another quote from the Miami Herald article. However I know your response will be that she's lying, or that she has to say that, or that she's a shill for the polytrack industry, yet another member of the grand conspiracy against dirt racing.

Woodbine Racetrack, in Toronto, also experienced problems after spending $11.5 million to install Polytrack last summer.

"It wasn't performing as well as we'd hoped when the cold weather hit," said Jane Holmes, vice president of corporate affairs for Woodbine Entertainment Group.

But she added, "It's still much better than the old dirt track."

Yes and in contrast to the rational, level headed arguments that are put forth around here by the "dirt lobby".

... Because all the discussion in this thread has been so produtive, right? Writing to those who have the control would be no more or a less a waste of your time than what you're writing here.

Its simply not an all weather track Jim.

Im not debating what the lady from Woodbine said, I hold it in the same regard as what TWP says. The track just has a few kinks. A few kinks is an understatement.

Champ, I thought this was a forum where we could talk about racing

It is a forum where one can talk about racing.

Which isn't exactly what's going on here... you're just ranting and raving and, in general, standing on everyone's last nerve.

There are ways to discuss things, and then there's what you do.

I'm still totally miffed by the opinion you seem to hold (and correct me if I'm mistaken) that Turfway's dirt track was better than their Polytrack.