I'll say it once...ORIENTATE. His foals can RUN! I have seen so many that I like. I know that he was mostly a sprinter on dirt, but he also won stakes on the turf at a mile. I really like this horse. He was also sound upon retiring and he is a very classy looking animal.

I think Afleet Alex will become a very, very good sire also.

Pgardn, if you like Easy Goer (as I did), you may like this guy...

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd...ion_no=1422500

i believe Desert Warrior in NY has the pedigree to have a chance to make some waves.

You prove your racing worth on the track.
The money worth... is worthless.
Stating Easy Goer did not have a chance to prove his worth is a little statement Bloodhorse should suck back up like a hanging snot rocket.

Let em run.

i'd like to see Pink Duck get a shot.

What about Barbaro? He won on turf and dirt and at different distances. Afleet Alex also comes to mind. I also think Golden Missle could be a good stallion. And you also have Awesome Again. I think there are several good ones.

He's a gelding........

I haven't been into pedigree/breeding since the late 80's (last time I owned any race horses). If they bring some decent mares to him he's got a chance. I think that is where they make it. You can't have him cover mares that have little chance to produce good winners.

Skip Away won alot of races and alot of money ON THE TRACK. As a stud, Skip Away is a BIG DUD.

are we sure ? he was listed as a horse just last year...that would be a bummer if he was gelded with his rare Spy Song top line.

until 7/4/04 his pp shows he's a horse/colt. he's 8 now. why would they geld him so late in his career when he's a stallion prospect ?

He is listed as a horse, but knowing Bunkie I wouldn't be surprised if he just never reported it....I have a few La-breds that were gelded in past years that were listed as full horses for a long time....Pink Duck is a cool horse but he has the pedigree of a donkey...I know you're being sarcastic about breeding to him because he is just a hard-knocking, blue-collar La-bred...as a matter of fact, if you want to stand him then I'm sure you can claim him the next time he runs for $10K claimers...

no donkey. 97 brisnet top speed fig. winner on turf and dirt. Spy Song tail male. Only Alladin Rib has that in Ohio. The Spy Song line SHOULD be a great tail male line. He's prominent in many, Storm Cat, Mt Livermore, Peaks and Valleys, etc. The Beter Man Can.

He deserves a shot. What stamina his tail mail line has up to Crimson Satan ! Wow.

i think he'd be perfect for failed Storm Cat mares.

and it looks like Mr Brilliant has retired down in La. so the Spy Song line needs Pink Duck. He has a very rare top line and is the only racing stallion prospect in the world that has it, right now.

I guarantee that you could buy him for $10K.......he's gotten really cheap the last year or so...

well how long youve been watching for randy? he was ducked huh? maybe by medags but whyd his connections duck the BCC? LOL probaly becuase they knew hed have problems beating a full field. a very nice horse nontheless but unproven if you ask me becuz they didnt run the horse on BC day. there have been alotta other horses the last 10 years since ive been watching that have proven more. you can run the greatest numbers all day long randy but winning races against the best comp is what proves the most. bellamy road ran 1 eye popping race but against who? lol a bunch of G3 horses@best! see my point

No I don't see your point and frankly I don't like your tone either. I think my opinion is as informed as any on here. Let's say I've watched most every major race for the past 15 years. So I'll leave the 80's to others but I've also seen many of the major figures from races during that time period as well, and I'm aware of their numbers vs. runners of the past few years.

Apparently you forget that he had an injury in September while training for the Breeders Cup. At least he beat older, did it on both turf and dirt and had a something like a 8 race 4yr old campaign if I remember correctly.

Have I ever said Bellamy Road was anything than a 1 race horse? Mineshaft followed that number up with 3 more negative numbers in the low to mid negatives. He was hardly a one race wonder. But again, I'm not here to convince you. There are people who've been around a hell of a lot longer than me who think he is right there as well.

I agree with Jessica about Orientate. From what I have seen at the 2 year old sales this year, Orientate's offspring look great. I think he will be the hot new sire.

Why dont we just carry out little breeding experiments, see how nice they look as two year olds, and never let them on the track. The industry could make it like a dog show. We could parade them around and wager on who the judges think look the nicest. Just make racing totally into breeding and conformation. That sounds fun.

Let em run for Christ sakes.

How they look conformation wise has a HUGE affect on how they run. I won't buy any horse that doesn't have a sloping shoulder, large nostrils and straight legs.

That would be because you have linked those traits to how they run?

I would be inclined to always watch a horse RUN, before purchase. But because I dont purchase, I dont have the authority to say. But come on Gator, you are taking more of a risk buying a yearling that has never taken a good run with a jock aboard, compared to a two year old showing his stuff.

But its not a risk if you are buying a horse for a dog show.

Nostrils? I would be inclined to like horses with large nostrils unless it is linked to some other trait that is a defect. Horses breath through their nostrils. I will never forget a picture I saw of Candy Ride upon beating Megs, his Nostrils were huge.

Yes, you obviously take a HUGE risk in buying a yearling over a two year old in training. The advantage is that (if you know what you're looking at), you can sometimes get a horse for a lot cheaper than if you bought them as two year olds. Another advantage in yearling purchases for me is that you know that since they haven't been run, you break them and train them however you like. Horses have memories similar to elephants... they remember EVERYTHING and if they are broken the wrong way or started wrong, they don't run as well in the long run. Obviously, you're correct that you can't determine the run and heart of a yearling, but technically, you can't really see that until a horse runs in a race anyway.

So whats your fascination with nostrils? I'm serious. What do large nostrils in young animals indicate to you?

The larger the nostrils in a thoroughbred, the more air they're inhaling and the more air they are inhaling, the better their lungs can work. If they're breathing good, they're going to run faster and longer without tiring. :D

I misread your quote, I was going to say it makes no sense at all to me not to love big nostrils. Sorry. Big flaring nostrils it is.

the next big stallion.....ME!!!

I agree with Jessica as well, when the first photo's of Orientate's weanlings hit the mags I was struck by how iniform they all looked, extremely strong in the hindquarters and the set of their necks is great, they look so athletic, I see them being runners.

I also think Empire Maker will be an exciting stallion as he was very precocious for an Unbridles and I don't think we nearly saw the best of him, he would have been great on turf as well, and the pedigree is to die for.

The two I'm hoping make it big time, due to their class and heart on the track are Congaree and Medaglia d' Oro, we can sure use some warriors like those guys, I adored them both.

I think that Point Given will be the next super stud. If Barbaro stays on the right track and can breed, he has the look of a great stallion. Also Bernardini from this crop and First Samuria could have a lot of potential. Kitten's Joy should be a good turf sire.

King Cugat is very underrated. Obviously, not the next big stallion, but definitely has potential.

You get to watch the horses work an 1/8th or even a 1/4 of a mile at the 2 year old sales. If you know what you are looking at, you will have a very good idea as to which sires are throwing runners. You don't need to wait until they run in a race to know which ones can run.
With yearlings, you can't tell nearly as much. However, even with yearlings you can make a good educated guess as to which ones can run. Last year we bought 15 yearlings for our pinhooking business. Every single one of them could run. Every single horse worked an 1/8th of a mile in :10 and change. Actually, there was one horse that worked :11 flat. That's pretty darn good. Basically every horse could run a little and some of them could run a lot.

A lot of thoroughbreds can run... it's how they perform in a race that sets apart the good ones and the bad ones. I had an appendix (he was my showjumper) that could beat my sister's thoroughbred (off the track, stakes winner of $100,000) up to a mile, but he had a herd mentality and would freak out if he got too far ahead of the others. To me, it takes an actual race or at the very least, a good 6 furlong work with 3 or 4 other horses to see how a horse really performs. Sometimes the most talented animals don't have it in them to actually win the races. JMO.

I'm obviously not going be able to tell you exactly what a horse will accomplish in his career based on an 1/8th of a mile work. There's no way to do that. I'm not trying to do that. I am trying to pick out stakes horses and if I'm right around 35% of the time, then I'm doing really well. I would expect all the horses I pick to be able to run. I would estimate that around 70% of the horses I pick will be able to break their maiden in their first couple of starts unless they are horses that look like they want to run really long.

That makes complete sense. Thanks for the input. :)

LMFAO you dont like my tone huh? you really buy the injury BS dont you randy? they knew the horse wouldnt go to anita and win the BCC and they didnt wanna risk tarnishing the horse and god forbid run against a full field lol! but thats ok this is something you and i have been at odds at for years and will never change

Playa you are right, the horse wasn't ever going to go there. Its because he had a HOY on the line and the Cali tracks are incredibly hard to ship to and win on from the East. I mean look what he did the rest ofthe year? So because he didn't ship there(on a day when Cali horses dominated, gee what a shock, why dont they do that anyplace else?) that means he didn't do what he did?

Go check out some of Orientate's two year olds in training at barretts.com and the Keeneland sales. Watch the babies fly! They are incredibly precocious and beautiful moving animals too.

his first winner placed in a small listed stake recently--can't remember where though. Name is Lost On Champagne (she's a looker too)

For another $20K you can get Afleet Alex on the same farm. Not impressed with Orientates on the track right now.

May I ask why not?

I am just not a believer in them being anything but sprinters. He had arguably the best mares out there and I just thought they would be a little more impressive. I probably set the expectations too high on him but he will always be nothing more than a sprinter to me. I probably will eat my words on this one next year when they turn 3, but I still am not a believer.

but in breeding the conventional logic is that stamina influence comes from the dam, so it will depend what is bred to him. They may not have classic winning distance in them but there is no reason that he can't get good milers.

I don't know how true that is if you really looked closely at it. Depending on my mares, I would be more inclined to save the $7500 and go with Honour & Glory. I want to see how that Orientate colt out of the Storm Cat mare Contrive pans out. I still think they will be sprinters but I could be wrong.