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-   -   I Think Barbaro Should Be Put Down (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8784)

Samarta 01-13-2007 07:33 PM
It is a terrible position to be in and one I don't envy. This horse took them on the ride of their lives from Jan to May and it took a drastic turn at the Preakness. On one hand I understand the thought process of stopping on him and putting him down. On the other hand I firmly believe that if it were the right thing to do, Dr. Richardson would simply tell the Jacksons that it was time.

You know people give owners such a hard time when they retire horses "too early" and sure I suppose there are cases where it's a take the money and run thing, but for the most part the ride that an entire team goes on when a horse realizes it's potential at just the right time and wins the Derby is something that most people could never imagine. So when most owners make the decision to retire horses or exhaust all medical means to save a horse, it is done so out of heartfelt gratitude toward the animal that allowed them to live a dream. So with all of that, I just have to believe that if they had any doubts at all, they would put him down. Until that happens, fight on big boy, fight on.

Danzig 01-13-2007 08:27 PM
i wonder if anyone questioned the course of treatment with nuryev....he went thru hell, and ended up making it. or your host, sire of kelso, who fractured a shoulder and was laid down in sand to heal. walked for the rest of his life with a pronounced limp.
there were those who criticized the treatment of sunday silence. they didn't euthanize him as long as there was hope. when he finally laid down, they knew that was it.

barbaro according to all reports has been alert, bright eyed, full of enery and with a healthy appetite from the get-go. they have said from the beginning that as long as he will be pain free, they're willing to try. and no doubt barbaro appreciates that.
as long as there is life, there is hope. i won't second guess one thing they've done, nor will i second guess anything they do from here on out.
i know that when the laminitis was first discovered, mrs jackson wanted him put down. but dr richardson and mr jackson looked at barbaro, who was looking right back at them, and said no-not yet.
they've taken extreme measures with him--but this IS an extreme situation.

i will be really surprised if he has a long life. but he's done nothing but surprise me from day one. so who knows?

Scurlogue Champ 01-14-2007 12:00 AM
It isn't a fun topic, but I agree with the title of the thread.

But I am a pessimist, so who knows...

Scav 01-14-2007 12:42 AM
Randall,

I said the same thing to Byk the other day. I saw the CBS special about him and he looks like a totally different horse and him dragging that rear leg is a sad sight.

I will say though, I am glad it isn't my decision, not sure if I could make it.

randallscott35 01-14-2007 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
Randall,

I said the same thing to Byk the other day. I saw the CBS special about him and he looks like a totally different horse and him dragging that rear leg is a sad sight.

I will say though, I am glad it isn't my decision, not sure if I could make it.
Didn't see the CBS special, that's tough to hear but I'm not surprised....This is one of those situations where you want to be wrong about it.

Sightseek 01-14-2007 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
this horse has shown time and time again that he is a fighter...those are also the types that tolerate pain and don't really show when they are hurting until it gets REALLY bad...the fact that the hospital says he is 'acceptably comfortable' means so much more than his owners saying he is 'in no pain'...they sound as though they are in denial.

I've worked with horses hands on for a long time...many years were spent with Morgans...a breed that sees a lot of laminitis...I've lost horses and seen horses survive...but the cost (and I'm not talking about $$) is great...in salvaging the animal's life we robbed it of the essense of being a horse...that is to graze freely and to run around in a pasture...for the remainder of their lives the disease would recur at various times...causing more pain and dietary and execise restrictions...

though I understand the emotional desire to save them all I have arrived at the opinion that it is usually kinder to let them go...and the laminitis coupled with the fracture makes Barbaros future uncertain at best and likely not the most comfortable or fulfilling existance...I have to say that I agree with Randy...I think that intially the Jacksons were doing the right thing for the right reason, and that now they are doing the wrong thing for the right reason...I don't doubt for a moment that they have the best intentions but sometimes the hardest decision to make is ultimately the right one....JMO
Interesting, I too grew up around Morgans and had several friends in the Pony Club and 4-H that had them as well and never once heard of them having a laminitis problem.

As for Barbaro, the people in New Bolton know what is best for the horse. Patient by patient case...just like people should be treated.

Danzig 01-14-2007 11:21 AM
he doesn't drag the leg, but it is awkward since he can't flex his ankle--so he has a bad hitch in his step. it is sad to see, knowing how he was before. but damn, that's like saying you don't want to live if you're stuck in a wheelchair.

i don't like to get 'mushy' or emotional, but that tape brought tears to my eyes.

paisjpq 01-14-2007 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
Interesting, I too grew up around Morgans and had several friends in the Pony Club and 4-H that had them as well and never once heard of them having a laminitis problem.
As for Barbaro, the people in New Bolton know what is best for the horse. Patient by patient case...just like people should be treated.
I think it tends to be overrepresented in the park-horse type morgan...

Sightseek 01-14-2007 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
I think it tends to be overrepresented in the park-horse type morgan...
I always had a Lippitt Morgan, but my sister rode and worked for a farm that showed Saddleseat...personally I've never been a fan of it or how the horses are kept.

paisjpq 01-14-2007 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
I always had a Lippitt Morgan, but my sister rode and worked for a farm that showed Saddleseat...personally I've never been a fan of it or how the horses are kept.
it's an aquired taste I guess...I groomed for a show barn and rode saddle seat for a few years...not really my thing but it paid the bills...the breed itself though is prone to insulin resistance often secondary to pituitary dysfunction (cushing's syndrome), which if not managed through diet etc. can lead to overload and laminitis...

Sightseek 01-14-2007 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
it's an aquired taste I guess...I groomed for a show barn and rode saddle seat for a few years...not really my thing but it paid the bills...the breed itself though is prone to insulin resistance (secondary to pituitary dysfunction usually) which if not managed through diet etc. can lead to overload and laminitis...
I guess the 15 or so we had through the years were lucky.

mclem10011 01-14-2007 11:38 AM
Barbaro......
 
I feel should have been saved, I would feel that way about any horse. Because it's not always possible to save these great athletes, the fact that Barbaro has made it this far, is a miracle. I hope he continues to improve, I know he had a recent setback, but it sounds like he's gonna rebound once again, and I think it's fantastic!

golfer 01-14-2007 11:50 AM
this opinion comes from someone outside looking in who has never been around horses, but it seems to me the only reason they have been and continue to try to save this horse is because he is allowing it. Other horses would have thrashed around and never allowed this type of treatment. Call him smarter, or whatever, but he has been the ideal patient, almost human-like in character while all this has been ocurring. If he is that intelligent, perhaps he will let everyone know when enough is enough?

Samarta 01-14-2007 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfer
this opinion comes from someone outside looking in who has never been around horses, but it seems to me the only reason they have been and continue to try to save this horse is because he is allowing it. Other horses would have thrashed around and never allowed this type of treatment. Call him smarter, or whatever, but he has been the ideal patient, almost human-like in character while all this has been ocurring. If he is that intelligent, perhaps he will let everyone know when enough is enough?
and he will....

jpops757 01-14-2007 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35
Of course he is, from a financial standpoint which is what this should absolutely not be about. I hate the fact that we care less about the cheap horses who are run into the grave and then jump up and down to save the expensive ones. There is no consistency here....The main point here is that trying to save him with the extent of the injuries he had was unheard of. If it was a stakes horse on the undercard that day, they would've been put down without a second thought. So while he is still alive, his future isn't any better than that day as far as I'm concerned.
The sad thing about it is because of the insurance involved, it could be out of th docs and the Jacksons control.

Samarta 01-14-2007 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpops757
The sad thing about it is because of the insurance involved, it could be out of th docs and the Jacksons control.
How so? Even if that were the case, which I doubt, $$$ is not the issue. I think if Dr. Richardson and the Jacksons wanted to put him down, and they were told no by the insurance companies, they would do it anyway.

jpops757 01-14-2007 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samarta
How so? Even if that were the case, which I doubt, $$$ is not the issue. I think if Dr. Richardson and the Jacksons wanted to put him down, and they were told no by the insurance companies, they would do it anyway.
I agree with you but being right has no relationship to legality.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-14-2007 03:46 PM
I agree Randall, and I'm glad that someone finally had the balls to say it because I sure didn't. I have been thinking this ever since I found out just how bad his case of laminitis was. I have seen some turn around and be completely fine when they have a mild case of founder while others have to be put down from it. Barbaro's laminitis is as bad as it gets, and most horses would have been put down.

I truly believe that they put Barbaro back in the sling because the animal was in so much pain that they were afraid he was going to lay down. Most horses that have an acute attack do lay down and don't want to get back up.

There have already been 4-5 points at which they almost put Barbaro down. If he has another setback, I think they will make the right decision. This horse will never have a good quality of life.

Cannon Shell 01-14-2007 04:59 PM
There is no one here that is qualified to pass judgement on the fate of Barbaro. To my knowledge no one here has seen him other than in short video clips, we only know what is being reported newswise. We are not privy to his medical condition except what is released to the press. I seriously doubt and have doubted that this horse would ever be able to breed a mare let alone a book of mares and I dont believe that they are keeping him alive for monetary reasons. Barbaro may or may not make it a week, a month, a year or more but what he has done is allowed the doctors to advance their knowledge in dealing with catastrophic injuries such as his and the resulting problems. His legacy will live not only as a courageous and talented racehorse who showed bravery and determination following his injury but in the veternarian advances that will have come about because of him the horses that may be saved in the future

Sightseek 01-14-2007 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
There is no one here that is qualified to pass judgement on the fate of Barbaro. To my knowledge no one here has seen him other than in short video clips, we only know what is being reported newswise. We are not privy to his medical condition except what is released to the press. I seriously doubt and have doubted that this horse would ever be able to breed a mare let alone a book of mares and I dont believe that they are keeping him alive for monetary reasons. Barbaro may or may not make it a week, a month, a year or more but what he has done is allowed the doctors to advance their knowledge in dealing with catastrophic injuries such as his and the resulting problems. His legacy will live not only as a courageous and talented racehorse who showed bravery and determination following his injury but in the veternarian advances that will have come about because of him the horses that may be saved in the future
Wonderful post. :)

prudery 01-14-2007 05:53 PM
Cannon Shell's post was an excellent and rational summary of how this situation should be viewed . Anecdotal posts are just that ... As far as Barbaro being in a sling for fear of lying down and not getting up, this is just another fallacy . Mrs Jackson and Dr. Richardson both have reported that the horse lies down and gets up daily . He is not in the sling all day and night . The purpose of the sling is to keep weight on the hind legs balanced and supported as best as possible for obvious reasons. Information from the horse's connections is best read at Tim Wooley's website, or at New Bolton's . It is the most accurate and substantiated .

Danzig 01-14-2007 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
There is no one here that is qualified to pass judgement on the fate of Barbaro. To my knowledge no one here has seen him other than in short video clips, we only know what is being reported newswise. We are not privy to his medical condition except what is released to the press. I seriously doubt and have doubted that this horse would ever be able to breed a mare let alone a book of mares and I dont believe that they are keeping him alive for monetary reasons. Barbaro may or may not make it a week, a month, a year or more but what he has done is allowed the doctors to advance their knowledge in dealing with catastrophic injuries such as his and the resulting problems. His legacy will live not only as a courageous and talented racehorse who showed bravery and determination following his injury but in the veternarian advances that will have come about because of him the horses that may be saved in the future
very true cannon. he has made it this far because of advances that have been made because of those that came before him. and those after him will benefit.
maybe someday they will finally find the true key to curing laminits. altho in this case it's due to crushing of the laminae which caused loss of blood flow.

can't help but wonder--could there be a laminae transplant?? anyone know? could you remove healthy tissue from a horse and give to another. it's a thought that came to me last night....anyone?? may sound crazy, but i'd imagine once upon a time a lot of transplants seemed so..

Danzig 01-14-2007 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
I agree Randall, and I'm glad that someone finally had the balls to say it because I sure didn't. I have been thinking this ever since I found out just how bad his case of laminitis was. I have seen some turn around and be completely fine when they have a mild case of founder while others have to be put down from it. Barbaro's laminitis is as bad as it gets, and most horses would have been put down.

I truly believe that they put Barbaro back in the sling because the animal was in so much pain that they were afraid he was going to lay down. Most horses that have an acute attack do lay down and don't want to get back up.

There have already been 4-5 points at which they almost put Barbaro down. If he has another setback, I think they will make the right decision. This horse will never have a good quality of life.
they said back in july his laminitis was as bad as it gets.
as for the sling, they don't want to stress the fractured leg, they have put it back in a cast as well to help support that leg.
seems also it would be better to keep weight off the laminitic foot, so as to aid blood flow into the laminae.

paisjpq 01-14-2007 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig188
seems also it would be better to keep weight off the laminitic foot, so as to aid blood flow into the laminae.
while I agree that they don't want to overstress the laminitic foot this is not quite right...the horse's circulatory system to the lower leg is actually a rather rudimentary pump, it relys on the pressure exerted by weight bearing in order to force blood back to the heart...i.e. in order to work right there must be some weight bearing.

Danzig 01-14-2007 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
while I agree that they don't want to overstress the laminitic foot this is not quite right...the horse's circulatory system to the lower leg is actually a rather rudimentary pump, it relys on the pressure exerted by weight bearing in order to force blood back to the heart...i.e. in order to work right there must be some weight bearing.
but the sling won't keep all the weight off, right? just keep it even so too much isn't on one leg. i do know too much weight on one foot for too long crushes the laminae and cuts off blood flow.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-14-2007 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paisjpq
while I agree that they don't want to overstress the laminitic foot this is not quite right...the horse's circulatory system to the lower leg is actually a rather rudimentary pump, it relys on the pressure exerted by weight bearing in order to force blood back to the heart...i.e. in order to work right there must be some weight bearing.
You are absolutely correct in this, but it depends on the type of laminitis the horse has as to whether or not they are to receive exercise. Most veterinarians recommend exercise (walking) directly after an acute attack if possible because it increases the circulation in the foot. However, in milder or chronic episodes, this is not recommended and can actually be very harmful.

paisjpq 01-14-2007 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig188
but the sling won't keep all the weight off, right? just keep it even so too much isn't on one leg. i do know too much weight on one foot for too long crushes the laminae and cuts off blood flow.
I don't really know...I assume that they can adjust the sling to varying heights to accomodate his comfort in bearing his own weight.

Sightseek 01-14-2007 07:29 PM
Speaking of slings, did anyone else see the completely unrealistic horse movie of the girl (Allie was her name I remember) who gets in trouble with the police and is sent to a horse re-hab farm for part of her community commitment and the horse breaks out of it's sling after a tractor runs through his stall wall and the horse miraclously trots off with the girl hanging off the leadrope? :rolleyes: I wish I could remember the name of the move....it gets even more realistic than that.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-14-2007 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
Speaking of slings, did anyone else see the completely unrealistic horse movie of the girl (Allie was her name I remember) who gets in trouble with the police and is sent to a horse re-hab farm for part of her community commitment and the horse breaks out of it's sling after a tractor runs through his stall wall and the horse miraclously trots off with the girl hanging off the leadrope? :rolleyes: I wish I could remember the name of the move....it gets even more realistic than that.
I actually saw that movie when I was really young...and I don't remember the name of the movie either!!! It's the movie where the trailer rolls down the hill right?

Sightseek 01-14-2007 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
I actually saw that movie when I was really young...and I don't remember the name of the movie either!!! It's the movie where the trailer rolls down the hill right?
That's the one! Is it Dark Horse or something?
It's funny how you associate the most random things with something even more random. :D

randallscott35 01-14-2007 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
There is no one here that is qualified to pass judgement on the fate of Barbaro. To my knowledge no one here has seen him other than in short video clips, we only know what is being reported newswise. We are not privy to his medical condition except what is released to the press. I seriously doubt and have doubted that this horse would ever be able to breed a mare let alone a book of mares and I dont believe that they are keeping him alive for monetary reasons. Barbaro may or may not make it a week, a month, a year or more but what he has done is allowed the doctors to advance their knowledge in dealing with catastrophic injuries such as his and the resulting problems. His legacy will live not only as a courageous and talented racehorse who showed bravery and determination following his injury but in the veternarian advances that will have come about because of him the horses that may be saved in the future
Completely disagree. The idea that a person can't have opinion on this b/c I'm they aren't there giving him a carrot every day or seeing in his stall is ridiculous. Mind you this is 8 months after the initial injury. Quite a bit is known about his day to day condition, the extent of the laminitis he suffered and the never ending surgeries he's had....And the idea that Barbaro has been the perfect guinea pig for advancing knowledge is a piss poor decision to keep a horse bouncing around from one setback to the next until he is put down....At this point, the decision is clear and my guess is they will realize that in the not too distant future.

kentuckyrosesinmay 01-14-2007 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightseek
That's the one! Is it Dark Horse or something?
It's funny how you associate the most random things with something even more random. :D
I think it is Dark Horse.

randallscott35 01-14-2007 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I don't think the connections are looking at him as a guinea pig at all. What if, by some miracle he makes a recovery and lives another 5 or so years. Won't it be worth it. In reality, since the lamintis which was in the summer, this is the first setback. Did anyone really think that there would be no setbacks along the road? After each setback are people going to be questioning the connections? They have made it clear from the get go their intentions. I respect your opinion, but honestly who knows better than Dr. Richardson? Don't you think he will do best by the horse?
Dahoss, Cannon's post said the guinea pig part. I sure don't think that anyone else is in it to advance knowledge. And yes, I hope he lives 25 years and has a 10,000 kids. But the truth is that's simply not going to happen.

Seattleallstar 01-14-2007 08:05 PM
Im just happy Barbaro isnt reading this. Get well boy! Dr Richardson will lead the way

King Glorious 01-14-2007 08:27 PM
Randall, I'm glad u started this. As someone else mentioned, it took courage to do it. I have been thinking the same thing but never thought to post it because I know how the Barbaro fans are about this horse. I do agree with u totally, especially when u talk about how it's unfair how they are so concerned with him but not the $5k claimer that this happens to. I read about how his owners deserve some special Eclipse awards and all that and it sickens me. They don't deserve anything more special than anyone else that puts their heart and money into it and loses a horse to fatal injury.

randallscott35 01-14-2007 08:39 PM
Back to the sling for the next month. This is the same spot Barbaro was in during July.

randallscott35 01-14-2007 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
Randall, I'm glad u started this. As someone else mentioned, it took courage to do it. I have been thinking the same thing but never thought to post it because I know how the Barbaro fans are about this horse. I do agree with u totally, especially when u talk about how it's unfair how they are so concerned with him but not the $5k claimer that this happens to. I read about how his owners deserve some special Eclipse awards and all that and it sickens me. They don't deserve anything more special than anyone else that puts their heart and money into it and loses a horse to fatal injury.
I appreciate that. I realized that it wasn't the most popular thing to do or say, but so far there are quite a few people in this thread who seem to agree. Which has surprised me.


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