Those were Strong Pretender's figures.

Those were Strong Performer's figs.

You're slipping.

Strong Contender ran a 94 Beyer in the 2nd start of his life, off like an 8 month layoff. A few weeks later, Bernardini would win with a 90 Beyer, in the 2nd start of his life, at the same distance over the same track.

Showing Up ran a 100 Beyer, at the same distance, over the same track, also in the 2nd start of his life.

Horses progress. Any horse that can run a 94, in the 2nd start of his life, going a one-turn mile, off a very long layoff, is more than likely headed for marked improvement down the line.

* Strong Contender: Feb 22nd, ALW race, 8f's, GP. 2nd start of career, Won by 5 lengths in 1:34 3/5ths with a 94 Beyer.

* Bernardini: March 4th, MSW race, 8f's GP. 2nd start of career, Won by 7 lengths in 1:35 with a 90 Beyer

* Showing Up: March 11th, ALW race, 8f's GP. 2nd start of career, Won by 2 lengths in 1:34 flat with a 100 Beyer.


If Bernardini can jump to a 117...and Showing Up can jump way up....why is it so hard to belive that Strong Contender could

Flower Alley was not competitive at all this year, and putting him away is hardly impressive.

I am slipping!!!

At this time tomorrow night I will be out on a date with Emily! My mind is elsewhere.

I apoligize to you sir, for my incredible showing of mediocrity and retardation...here in the 3rd page of this thread.

It won't happen again!

Invasor was moved early into a hot pace to do so.....

Even if Flower Alley does suck---Jara still moved very prematurely simply to take it Flower Alley.

I was reading from oldest to newest, didn't see this had been addressed already. No doubt he ran a much better race than Sun King did.

Like you hadn't seen it all before.

I thought it was deja vu all over again.

1.The Tin Man Arlington Million
2.The Tin Man Dubai Duty Free
3.The Tin Man Clement Hirsch
4.The Tin Man American Invite
5.The Tin Man workout at Hollypark
6-10 Repeat any of Fleet Indian's wins
11-25 I dont know. guess anything that happened in the KEE fall meet


Repent

Two very overrated races and/or performances you left off drugS.

The gotham stakes. Have any of the major players in that race came back to win a graded stakes this year, other than the one win by SNS, which, leads me to the 2nd overrated race...

The Illinois derby. This is the race that created the legend of SNS, especially in the minds of the young and very impressionable. Can you believe people made him the favorite over Barbaro in the ky derby? This right there nails the illinois derby as one of the all time most overrated performances in history!

Or, as I like to call her, the lobotomizer!

Keep your mind on the races tomorrow night please!

Like Now's win in the Gotham was circumstanical...however, it wasn't that overrated. No one ever took that horse seriously.

Sweetnorthernsaint won the Illonois Derby with a sweet trip, however, his performance was excellent in my opinion. Let's not forget, he was 2nd, with like a 108 Beyer in the Preakness, inspite of the fact he grabbed a quarter leaving the gate, and had a MUCH worse trip than Bernardini had.

Thank you sal!

that reminds me of yet another seriously overhyped race. The preakness! Half the contenders get hurt and he walks around the track unmolested.

his performance was impressive, yes, but his figure was a fraud, in my eyes.

you know how i feel about bernardini too. someone should start a thread, the most overhyped really really good horses of the last 20 years.

By the way, speaking of SNS, is it true that they are shopping for another optional claiming race for him?

Guess again,

His figure was originally a 118 and later reduced to a 113. The day before, Invasor was originally given a 113 for his Pimlico Special win...and ended up getting a 108.

I believe the reasoning behind the 5 point shave of both figures was because, races run at the 1 3/16th mile distance at Pimlico have historically came back faster than expected.

FWIW, these same two horses ran 1-2 in the Breeders Cup Classic in November. The 3rd place finisher in that race won a Grade 1 by a city block in his next start. They are good horses.

If anything, the Preakness figure was a bit low, and, since when have speed figures meant anything to you? This is a new development tonight.

Yeah---maybe they can work out a match race with him and Bright One.

SNS's winter goal is the $1 million Sunshine Million Classic, he is preping for it in a Graded Stake at GP on opening weekend---where, I believe he will meet John Ward's Strong Contender.

all races involving Lava Man

Tin Man Million

Henny Hughes races

All races involving Discreet Cat.

He should take on Ward's best 3yo, Dr. Pleasure instead!

You brought it on yourself CJ......

More rehasing of old DrugS posts from elsewhere.....the 2nd "copy-paste" special of mine in this thread...

Discreet Cat VS Ghostzapper through their 3-year-old seasons

Career debut:

Discreet Cat: 1st by 3.5 lengths, 106 Beyer, 0 on Thoro-Graph
Ghostzapper: 1st by 9 lengths, 99 Beyer, 2 on Thoro-Graph


Record through 3yo season:

Discreet Cat: 6-6-0-0
Ghostzapper: 6-4-0-1


Top Career Beyer Through 3yo season:

Discreet Cat: 116
Ghostzapper 116

Worst Beyer of career:

Discreet Cat: 106
Ghostzapper: (3 times under 100)

Top Career Thoro-Graph figure through 3yo season:

Discreet Cat: -4.5 in Spa ALW, -4.75 in Jerome, ? for Cigar Mile
Ghostzapper: -4.5 in Vosburgh. By far his top

Grade 1 wins:

Discreet Cat: 1
Ghostzapper: 1

Number of starts around two-turns:

Discreet Cat: 0
Ghostzapper: 0

Why have the connections been shy to route these horses at a Classic distance:

Discreet Cat: Sire throws milers, dam was a speed mudder
Ghostzapper: Dam dropped confirmed sprinter City Zip

Both have falsly diagnosed pedigrees, and are absolutely bred to be speed routers.

The big difference: Connections:

Discreet Cat: Fools who think it's best to keep a horse in Dubai all winter
Ghostzapper: The magical Bobby Frankel

Conclusion: These horses are VERY similar through there 3-year-old season. Discreet Cat obviously holds the edge to this point----however, even being lightly raced, it's VERY unlikely he will make a big jump in form during his 4yo season like GZ did.

Discreet Cat is about to spend his 2ND entire winter in Dubai.

...and again, Ghostzapper is considered great for what he did at 4, not 3. You say yourself it is very unlikely he will make the big jump, so what is the point of the comparison?

This is like comparing Christian Laettner's Duke career to that of Michael Jordan at North Carolina. While both were outstanding at that reduced level, one was clearly overrated when the competition was stepped up. (Hint: It was the white guy)

I have some doubts that DC will be the great horse some make him out to be. I would not be shocked if he is though. But as a bettor, though I'll probably never get the chance, I'll take my shot against him at a ridiculously low price if he ever faces top class horses in the U.S. My main point is that due to the pathetic fields he lined up against, including the Cigar Mile, he performances almost have to be overrated.

Pre-NBA Laettner *sigh* :D

Any of the G1's won by Hollywood Story, Star Parade or Healthy Addiction.

What was the grade of the Oaklawn race Buzzard's Bay won?

I would have to say the Hollywood Starlet qualified as one of the weaker Grade 1s this year. That along with the Belmont race won by Sutra and the Prioress are among the weakest Gr. 1s this year. The Stephen Foster gets honorable mention.

if it's the oaklawn cap, it's a grade 2.

Well in the G2 & G3 category, my nominees are:

Bandini
Buzzard's Bay

:)

Bernardini:
1. Jim Dandy
2. Travers
3. Jockey Club Gold Cup
4. Preakness


All 3 are races that were overrated by the Bernmafia, in reality they were nice races, but nowhere near the Crowning Achievements that some made them to be...

I'm now moving Strong Pretender's Dwyer up to #1 on my list and his Super Derby up to #2. I'd probably move the Peter Pan into my top ten as well. At least no one takes Sinister Minister seriously. People honestly believe that Strong Pretender is a very good horse though on the basis of beating Doc Cheney and a hammerlocked Lawyer Ron and ignore the fact that he lost to Praying for Cash in the Haskell and Sunriver and Lewis Michael in the Peter Pan. If I was to rank the top 3yo's on dirt I would place him right around High Cotton, Lewis Michael, and Deputy Glitters. Yet from the sounds of things people actually think this horse would have a shot in the Sunshine Millions. The most overrated horse of 2006 is Strong Contender.

I don't think that much of Strong Contender, though I think he is better than you give him credit for last year.

His Haskell, which has been mentioned a few times, is a total toss. The horse had virtually NO CHANCE on that outside biased racetrack from his post position. To make matters worse, every other jockey knew it by the time the Haskell rolled around, so there was just no way to work out any kind of decent trip. I bet SC very strong in the Super Derby on this knowledge.

I'm not sure why beating a "hammerlocked" Lawyer Ron is such a bad thing. I hate when jockeys do that, but who is to say he would have run any better if let loose? He sure didn't show it in his next start.

I almost forgot: With a City's "masterpiece" against basically a NW2X field that masquered as a Gr 2 worth around $500K.

An argument could be made that Strong Contendor was, overall, the most overrated horse of 2006. Idiots like DrugS actually declared him an up and coming superstar after his Gulfstream debut and all things considered his year was extremely disappointing. On the other hand, he showed enough promise in his wins that the possibility exists that he could be a force going into 2007. Unfortunately, being that he's trained by John Ward, the likelihood of further disappointment is acute.

Now, Strong Contendor cannot be THE most overrated horse of 2007, because John " Einstein " Ward claimed midway through the year that Dr. Pleasure, a veritable bum, was actually the best of his 3YOs. So, he would clearly have to be more overrated than Strong Contendor.

Point Determined woud rank up there as well.

True. The fact that he was bet down to 9-1 in the Derby still blows my mind.

Well, you have to realize that the vast majority of horses on the TC will be overrated every year.

That said, it would be unfair not to mention Music School (who's thrilling return yesterday does just that, marks him as another overrated TC contender.) I remember people getting excited last year after his optional claiming win at Oaklawn, followed by an excuse-heavy 3rd or 4th in the Southwest.
Most overrated? No. But he deserves a spot.

I agree that Dr. Pleasure would have to be among the most overrated. It seems that the better the bloodline, the more overrated a horse is. Its like people assume he's going to be as good as his mother (Beautiful Pleasure). Or the horse that got beat in a NW2X yesterday at the FG who's a full brother to Ghostzapper. It ain't all in the genes.

Maybe I should retract my Music School post, he DID beat Aristocrat in the race you mention at Fair Grounds yesterday!

He may be the most ridiculous of all. He won a slow maiden race, with phony trouble, and the whole world was going crazy. Then he had a slow return, followed by phony trouble, and people were still excited.

Now, one could say injuries have slowed him, just as one could also say he was always a bum.

Aristocrat, and I know your joking, got a curiously idiotic ride. What the hell was he doing on the pace? He is a closing sprinter!

Wait, I just figured it out, Dixie must have given the jockey his instructions!

Strong Contender: Overrated Horse of the Year. Should be a special Eclipse award for that one.