thank you rupert...Yes I did misunderstand Mike's words...probably because of the fact that he referred to the horses as snappers...as someone who has heard the sound of a horses' bone breaking from 2 feet away this absolutely turned my stomach and I still find it hard to believe that Mike would defend his use of the word. One cannot simultaneously profess to be a champion of these animals and callously drop disgusting references like that IMO...the 2 just don't go together.
I apologize for any 'trouble' that ensued while I was at work...but that was not and has never been my intent.
Furthur, I have never posted on another forum in my life so Blue Eyes is barking up the wrong tree there.

I loved that horse at the sale, but I wouldn't pay $800,000 for him. We would have gone up to about $350,000 or so for that horse if he would have passed our vet. He didn't even pass our vet.

By the way, I'm not particularly big on pedigree when I go to a sale. The main thing that I'm interested in is a horse's ability and you can tell quite a bit about a horse's ability from watching them work. That being said, I'm still not going to pay $800,000 for a horse with no pedigree. Even if he's a really good horse and he wins a couple of stakes races and makes a few hundred thouand dollars, you will still lose money on him. The horse would have to be a super-horse for you to make money on him.

Beth its a slang term that many have heard at the track.
You watch a race and you hear a guy say "the 2 snapped".
Its ugly and I myself get sickened at horses breaking down.
I guess its one of those terms you hear a lot and forget that its gonna offend most people.
I am sorry i used the word, I'm not defending it, there are better ways to put it.
But noone else thought I meant "this is great stuff" and was referring to the horses breaking down.
I think this stuff is an excuse for a lotta guys to continue to overdrill horses(like I said in Cali, a few guys are now on SIX DAY PATTERNS!!!!) and folks are gonna run horses who have no business being on the track because they think Poly will prevent them from breaking down.
I'm sure not rooting for horses to die to say i told you so, that would make me like the scumbag Democrats who root for soldiers to die in Iraq so they can say i told you so, and there isn't anything lower than that.

We need to get one thing straight...Marty Collins has never said that PolyTrack is "maintenance free." Keeneland and Marty Collins have all said the following; "Minimum maintenance is required compared to a conventional dirt track because the Polytrack surface needs less watering and less harrowing." No where in this statement does it state that PolyTrack is "maintenance free." You can get this quote from Marty Collins web site and here is the link: http://www.polytrack.com/advantages.html. Also, if you click on the below link you can view the PowerPoint presentation to the California Horsemen....http://www.polytrack.com/presentation/index.html. You should be not getting any other info from PloyTrack from anywhere else other than Keeneland or Marty Collins.

Euro

If you are going to buy a horse privately should you get any information from anyone but the seller? Should you have it vetted, jogged, scoped, or just take the sellers word? How about when you buy a used car, just take the sellers word, dont even bother putting it up on a lift? How about with a house, any inspection, or just take the sellers word everything is up to code?? I guess we should just read and believe whatever Collins, or Keeneland says about the track they are selling and making millions on

I see your point and I agree to a certain extent. However, I was responding to the statement that people have said that Polytrack is "maintenance free." We all know that isn't the case and the creators and the people selling the stuff say that it isn't maintenance free. That is all I am saying.

And you have no vested interest in polytrack either I suppose?

I like Poly and I like dirt and I LOVE turf. I think after Arlington puts in their surface that there should not be anymore synthetic surfaces. Also, breakdowns are still way way down. I think there was like 24 at Turfway between 04 and 05. I think there has been like 7 between 05-06. To me, that is pretty good. The creator of Poly has never said the surface is maintenance free and that it will prevent breakdowns. That is all I am saying. I guess I am pissed cause the Colts got CRUSHED today.

Or the lowlifes that worship a staue of a jockey and defend his every ride no matter how bad it is.;)

Absolutely ZERO. I just want what is best for the industry. I see no problem in having a 3rd surface. Do you see a problem with having a 3rd surface?

Colts are in bad shape, they picked the wrong time to go cold. And it looks like San Diego is cruising towards a one seed.
Bengals are white hot right now, they could be this years version of Pittsburgh(of course Pittsburgh didn't have all the arrests but you get the point).

I do if people choose it due to erroneous propaganda and if people aren't allowed to complain about it(like The Bid said) and tell it like they see it.

Well The Bengals hold a special place with me because I cheered for them before Indy got the Colts. Yes, they are hot right now and they are catching the Colts and Broncos at the right time. I think they could make some noise in the playoffs. But Indy gave up 250 plus yards rushing on the first half.

They definitely needed to do something out here in Soutern California. They definitely needed to put in new surfaces at all the tracks here. Maybe they should have just put in new dirt surfaces. I don't understand why it would be so hard to put in a good, safe dirt surface. I guess they just weren't very confident that they could get it right with new dirt surfaces. I think they were more confident that they could do it right with artifical surfaces. I think they thought it would be much easier too.

I agree-feel free to complain but people should not be saying that the people who created and market this stuff are saying that it is maintenance free and will prevent breakdowns.

I should invent a paper mache surface bound together by miniture chainlinks and jello, sell it as an alternative surface to polytrack. If I could sit down with Rogers Beasley and tell him he could make a few million selling it I bet Keeneland would be trying to install it somewhere by the end of the week.

Ron Ellis has had a poor meet at HWD (so far.)I think he has won only 1 race(if I am wrong,please correct me.) The 1st thing he did(when he came on to talk on TVG) is compliment the track.He said the training track was muddy,but the main track was great(after almost a half inch of overnite rain.)Sure,he would like to have won 4 or 5 races this meet,but this trainer is a guy who really does indeed put the horses 1st.Obviously,he thinks this track is the best thing for his horses(whether they have been winning on it,or not.)

yeah easier, and I wonder if anyone ever gets a nice Christmas present for steering a 12 million dollar contract someplace.
Not much money in dirt you know?
Thats my point Richi, How come for years noone at these tracks "cared about" the horse welfare and just didn't spend 1/4 the cost of the poly on a new safe dirt surface?
My suspicions stem from the fact that as soon as there was a whole lotta cash in it, people all of sudden cared so much.
How come keeneland never put in a new dirt surface for YEARS to replace the surface that was very criticized?
All of a sudden they cared? And it had nothing to do with money?
I'm willing to bet that a lotta folks get some nice stocking stuffers this year.

As if you have any idea what you are talking about.

Where is Ron Ellis stabled?

http://www.keeneland.com/news/mediak.../factsheet.pdf

Please note the bullets that say:
1)It is dust free!!! LOL!!!! Why do those guys at turfway wear surgical masks if its dust free?
2)It maintains uniformity in various weather conditions. LOL!! Tell that to the guys up in canada where it supposedly fell apart.
3)It reduces kickback. Ever see a race from Turfway? Huh?
4) minimum maintenance required. How come Turfway has had to tweak and redo it so much if this is so?

Now please, can you see my problem with the way it has been marketed and the way its worked out in reality?

Oracle

All you need to do when you buy something is ask the guy whos selling it, they are always honest.

I don't know,but most of these guys have people at both Anita,and Hwd.
The thing being missed by people (who say that a new dirt surface would have been the way to go) is that turf horses have been running on this stuff the whole meet.Most "dirt" horses (who don't like turf,)are handling this cushion track.You can see why the field sizes would go way up.Not all horses are going to win on it,but most can win on it(in the right field.)Baffert is an Anita guy,but he has run some horses here.Why? Because he knows they need a race,and it isn't dangerous(they just "might not take to it" like his horses do at Anita.)

I am only going to focus on #4. The maintenance costs have been reduced by 58% at Turfway.

Of course you are only going to focus on number 4. You sure as hell can't focus on the other three!!!!!!!!!

Most of Ron's horses are at Hollywood. They would all be at Hollywood if he could get more stalls. There is a shortage of stalls at Hollywood right now, so practically every trainer with more than 30 horses has horses at both tracks.

Ron has 40 horses. He has 32 at Hollywood and 8 at Santa Anita.

When the Hollywood season ends on Dec 18th, it should be much easier to get stalls there.

The only major thing I see wrong with the Cushion Track is that it is very difficult to cap a group of races(at this meet.)This will not be the case for long.We have all seen that some horses can beat horses on it that they just can't beat on dirt. It makes most capping sheets or figures much less important than they normally are,but that will change.For bettors,this is a tread easy meet.It is the future in SOCAL that is gunna be great.We just have to get through this transition time.You must all see how turf horses don't scratch when they have to move turf races to this cushion track.That is very cool.Races aren't devastated by scratches.You get an actual contest(instead of just giving the check over to the one horse in there that likes dirt.)

You mean like a horse like St Stephen who cant stand up on dirt winning a graded stakes race on Polytrack like he just did?
yeah, I mean thats just another example of how this stuff has no relationship to dirt whatsoever.

I would say it allows racing between turf horses,and conventional "dirt" horses.I have seen about the same amount of turf horses freak on it as I have dirt horses.Steve Knapp has won 3 races out of about 55 starts here.All 3 wins were won by the same coventional dirt horse.You certainly don't have to be a turf horse to enjoy the cushion track.I know it is best (for sure) for SOCAL racing.We needed a shot in the arm,and if it means we get to race turf and dirt horses together,then so be it.We are getting turf horses from around the country now,and it is gunna get easier to cap as time goes on.This is a success out here.I don't regret it one bit,and I think it is better than polytrack.

Scuds I hear what you are saying, but its hard for people to wanna bet a place where a horse like St Stephen can be a graded winner on what passes for a dirt replacement.

how did spellbinder look today? hes a horse i use to follow. knows how to win.

Scratched late.

thanks. wonder what went wrong. appeared to be a race he could have done well in.

Turf racing in America is on it's death bed with the emergence of JunkTrack. Whereas the turf used to be inhabited by those the couldn't handle dirt, why would anyone want to race their grass horses on grass anymore when they are going to be able to win all the major "dirt" races? It's going to be so hilarious watching Saint Stephen and The Tin Man coming down to the wire in the Hollywood Gold Cup.

The Spring/Summer meet at HWD is gunna be a very popular meet.I think any place that puts this cushion track in is going to be very popular.The fact is that it is a very fair track.You see a horse like Saint Stephen take advantage of 2 guys acting stupid up front,but right away,you see(in the next race) Antongeorgi steal a race.I have been watching horses for almost 25 years,and this is the most fair surface I have seen.Sure,some horses are going to love/hate it,but once that gets established(and it will) this track will be much more capper friendly.I don't see the huge inside/outside...speed/anti-speed biases on a daily basis that I have seen for the last 25 years. It is difficult only because you have horses trying it or the 1st time(that is difficult to cap.)The number of 1st timers on this surface will slowly go down though.The most bias I have seen was the day Gomez won on GN. GRP. MEETING.That was a day when speed was in trouble.The day after that,they went a bit too far the other way.Since then,I think it has been very fair.Even when the times were very fast,horses could close if frontrunners ran together.The biggest problem in capping this surface is not that some horses hate it(not that many do.)The biggest problem is that some horses love it too much,and they blow the race for many cappers.

We'll see. I expect many good grass horses to try "dirt" in the future and lessen the quality and depth of the grass races.