Derby Trail Forums - tha lava man thread....

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- - tha lava man thread.... (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6713)

redransom

11-09-2006 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think it's a number of reasons. First, everyone knows but hates to admit that there is a media bias towards the East Coast. There are far more major media markets on the East and the majority of the population of our country lives east of the Mississippi. Nine times out of 10, if u have a horse that wins the Suburban, Whitney, and JCGC vs. a horse that wins the SA Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic, the Eastern one will be considered the better horse. That's just the way it is. A Vosburgh winner will be considered better than an Ancient Title winner. A Turf Classic winner will be considered better than an Oak Tree Invitational winner. The list could go on and on.

Second is that there is a different tempo to the racing out here in California than there is back east. Out here, if u don't have speed, u can forget it. It's the name of the game here. U can run in Florida or NY and have 23, 47 speed in routes and be a lone front runner. U bring that out here and u will find yourself with plenty of company on the lead at best and at worst, five lengths back. I don't think that many trainers or horses are prepared for the faster tempo of racing here and they get caught with their pants down.

Third, as BTW alluded to, is the prestige of the races. Many of those big NY races are 100 years old or so and they have far more prestige in them than the races out here. There is more prestige to winning a race at Saratoga than anywhere else in the country. Ask 100 owners would they rather win the $1 million Delaware Hcp or the Go for Wand at Saratoga worth less than half of that amount and I'd bet u would get at least 80% in favor of the GfW. If the choice is between the GfW and the Hirsch at Del Mar, it might be 90% in favor of the GfW.

All points very well taken. I talked to a trainer friend of mine about this very thing this morning; he said, really, it isn't about East vs. West as much as it's just planning races for a (good) horse based on a circuit. Good trainers don't think their good horses need to take their tracks with them, but that aside, if someone is based in, say, New York it just makes much more sense to plan a campaign around where he normally runs. The same thing applies to California-based horses. And there is a strong Eastern bias when it comes to the Eclipses, but that's just geography.

I will say, however, that my future Hall of Fame trainer friend (and former classmate) did say the level of competition out here is a big factor in determining whether or not to ship. His point was why ship all the way across the country and know you're going to have to beat extremely tough California horses when you can stay home? Tracks have nothing to do with it, he said, and if anything the polytrack is now an added incentive to come out here and roll the dice. I think I'll take his word on it.

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom

I will say, however, that my future Hall of Fame trainer friend (and former classmate) did say the level of competition out here is a big factor in determining whether or not to ship. His point was why ship all the way across the country and know you're going to have to beat extremely tough California horses when you can stay home? Tracks have nothing to do with it, he said, and if anything the polytrack is now an added incentive to come out here and roll the dice. I think I'll take his word on it.

Yeah, Super Frolic, Magnum, Ace Blue and Preachinatthebar are superstars. :rolleyes:

Cajungator26

11-09-2006 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Yeah, Super Frolic, Magnum, Ace Blue and Preachinatthebar are superstars. :rolleyes:

HEY NOW! Leave out Preachinatthebar... I love that horse. :p

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

HEY NOW! Leave out Preachinatthebar... I love that horse. :p

Very beautiful. Not very fast.

Cajungator26

11-09-2006 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Very beautiful. Not very fast.

I know... he's like Silverfoot to me. :o

I loved Silver Charm too... (he was fast, though.) LOL

redransom

11-09-2006 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Yeah, Super Frolic, Magnum, Ace Blue and Preachinatthebar are superstars. :rolleyes:

That's the best you could come up with? I thought you were actually a follower of the game. Now I can see that can't be the case...

FairPlay

11-09-2006 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Yeah, Super Frolic, Magnum, Ace Blue and Preachinatthebar are superstars. :rolleyes:

Of course you omit, Brother Derek, T.H. Approval, King's Drama, Seek Gold, Perfect Drift and Giacomo, who, while not superstars, are Grade 1 winners vanquished by Lava Man during his 2006 California Campaign.

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairPlay

Of course you omit, Brother Derek, T.H. Approval, King's Drama, Seek Gold, Perfect Drift and Giacomo, who, while not superstars, are Grade 1 winners vanquished by Lava Man during his 2006 California Campaign.

The defense rests. If you think any East Coast trainers aren't shipping out there because they're scared of facing that crew, plus the four I mentioned.. Ugh..

blackthroatedwind

11-09-2006 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The defense rests. If you think any East Coast trainers aren't shipping out there because they're scared of facing that crew, plus the four I mentioned.. Ugh..

That's some scary contingency.

I got frightened just reading their names.

philcski

11-09-2006 01:31 PM

I tossed him after I realized the "B" wouldn't be in his running line for this race.

hoovesupsideyourhead

11-09-2006 01:34 PM

bro derek lol...now thats funny.......oh wait here some more killers ..polish times,oceanus,...cambriocoursa...lava didnt run a step in the p classic the year i was there......yes a 3rd string jock from the east can do well as can 3rd string stable from the east...

redransom

11-09-2006 01:36 PM

Two words...

St. Liam.

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom

Two words...

St. Liam.

Two words. Non sequitur.

redransom

11-09-2006 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Two words. Non sequitur.

LOL! How do you figure that? Because it's true? That's a perfect way for me to end this "discussion" on a positive note for me. Thank you!

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redransom

LOL! How do you figure that? Because it's true? That's a perfect way for me to end this "discussion" on a positive note for me. Thank you!

Yeah, you really proved a lot. :rolleyes:

LARHAGE

11-09-2006 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I liked him a lot. He was training great. :o

I love Lava Man, he had a season most owners would dream of, so he can't ship, lots of horses don't ship. Sky Beauty couldn't ship, Silver Train, heck I have had horses go absolutely nuts when just switching stalls, it just effects some horses. Lava Man is a nice horse, I'm certainly not going to disparage him, there were horses that finished behind him after all.

LARHAGE

11-09-2006 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Lava Man is a notorious stallrunner.. When he leaves home, he'll pace and run the stall endlessly. It's just his make up. He's not comfortable in unfamiliar surroundings and frets at the upheaval. No way to cure that in the midst of a racing career, and no way to get one to perform his best if he has that composition.. The horse handlers here can better expand on this...

Exactly right, I mentioned that, I have a horse at my house that paces and screams and digs holes in her stall so deep you could bury a body in them, and that is if I merely switch her stall at home!!!

LARHAGE

11-09-2006 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I said CONSISTENTLY did well, not won one slow race on Polyturf.

And you're missing my point. It's not a East Coast ships West vs. West Coast ships East thing. My point is that it's a completely different type of racing out West.

Add Bob and John, Pico Central, Borrego, Lost in The Fog.

ateamstupid

11-09-2006 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Add Bob and John, Pico Central, Borrego, Lost in The Fog.

I said in the past year.. Pico and Lost in the Fog were very special horses, no doubt.

SniperSB23

11-09-2006 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Add Bob and John, Pico Central, Borrego, Lost in The Fog.

Bob and John was a little piggy that loved the slop.

Assttodixie

11-09-2006 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Bob and John was a little piggy that loved the slop.

yes, and steppenwolfer was the big bad wolf that just...blew!

Cunningham Racing

11-10-2006 08:21 AM

I think the horse ran like most expected him to....he has never shipped and won away from Cali and there was no reason to believe he would all of the sudden start a new trend in what was against the hardest group of horses he had ever faced.

Frankly, he was simply too slow on the sheets anyway, and the two fastest horses in the race ran 1-2, and maybe the third fastest horse on the dirt in the race ran third even....

How Lava Man took more money than Invasor was a joke IMO...just shows you the influence of the heart over the knowledge of the casual bettor on the big race days.....

SniperSB23

11-10-2006 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assttodixie

yes, and steppenwolfer was the big bad wolf that just...blew!

Ha, I should have figured that one would draw you out.

2Hot4TV

11-10-2006 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

The defense rests. If you think any East Coast trainers aren't shipping out there because they're scared of facing that crew, plus the four I mentioned.. Ugh..

The fact is that they don't ship and try very often. I still say if it was that easy they would be in on Friday and out on Sunday.

ateamstupid

11-10-2006 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

The fact is that they don't ship and try very often. I still say if it was that easy they would be in on Friday and out on Sunday.

I never said it was easy. My point is it's the surface, not the competition, that the East Coast trainers are leery of.

SniperSB23

11-10-2006 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I never said it was easy. My point is it's the surface, not the competition, that the East Coast trainers are leery of.

I have a feeling with the sythetic surfaces we will see more east coast horses going west for the big purse races. It just makes no sense to send them out to the dirt tracks now and risk injury.

King Glorious

11-11-2006 05:28 AM

Too many guys that I have too much respect for, guys like Mandella, Drysdale, McAnally....are based in California. If the tracks were really that unsafe and dangerous, I don't think they would be here.

repent

11-11-2006 08:47 PM

for once the guy has a point and I have always tried to express that same point in this whole poly argument.

cali tracks are fast.
does not mean they are more dangerous than a track in say, Maryland or New Jersey.

maybe Im the only one, but I watch Hollypark every day in hopes that horses will break down so that this whole safety angle will go away in the debate.

Repent

Danzig

11-11-2006 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by repent

maybe Im the only one, but I watch Hollypark every day in hopes that horses will break down so that this whole safety angle will go away in the debate.

Repent

i'd imagine it's a very safe bet that you're the only one who'd want to win a debate that way.

repent

11-11-2006 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i'd imagine it's a very safe bet that you're the only one who'd want to win a debate that way.

well,
when horses start breaking down on that crap then thats one less thing the poly party can point to as a reason for the surface.

horses die.
its part of racing.
ask anyone who bet on Bayakoa if they were upset about Go For Wand breaking down.
from now on, if its going to happen, I hope it happens on polytrack.

Repent

repent

11-11-2006 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're kidding right. Not even YOU could be this big an a$$hole. You are hoping for horses breaking down, so you can make a point in a debate. Karma man, karma....

the debate is bigger than any one horse's life.
this is the future of American racing we are talking about.

Repent

repent

11-11-2006 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Let me get a shovel, so I can rid the area of all of the bull$hit you are spewing. I would go out on a limb and say 99% of people that want to be right about poly not being the end all be all to horse safety still aren't looking to see horses, or anyone injured.

dont kid yourself.
the main argument, especially in CA, is the safety of the horses and rders.
in KY and the east coast, it has more to do with weather and racing days.
but in CA, they have fast tracks anyway.
so its really about some percieved level of safety.

so with that in mind, if we are going to win the state of CA, we have to beat them on the safety issue.
we need horses to start getting hurt and breaking down.
the sooner the better.
have you seen those TVG "cushion track" propaganda commercials.
they interview like 10 trainers about the new, "safe", surface.

and dont act like horse players are so freaking concerned about the safety of horses.
dont tell me that when your horse is in a dog fight in the stretch, that you are not hoping for something to go wrong with the other horse.

Repent

Danzig

11-11-2006 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by repent

that you are not hoping for something to go wrong with the other horse.

Repent

i'd imagine that everyone is hoping for their horse to be in front at the wire, not that the other horse has something go wrong with it. leave it to you to come up with that type scenario.

Danzig

11-11-2006 09:15 PM

and it would be nice if no more horses had to lose their life for our enjoyment. so, sorry, altho i'm not sold on poly, i'll be damned if i'd want to see another pine island to prove a point.

Danzig

11-11-2006 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by repent

oh, and repent, not quite sure who your idea of 'we' is...but rest assured, i'm not part of that team.

redransom

11-11-2006 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by repent

I have so many problems with what you said I don't even know where to begin. Nothing personal because I don't know you at all, but why is safety for horses (and riders) a bad thing? Why do you want it to fail?

The "propaganda" is, most likely, actually the truth. I admit the jury's still out, but Santa Anita is a virtual ghost town because everyone's in Inglehood training their horses on a safer surface. Not all of these trainers can be wrong about how their horses are handling the polytrack, and that they're staying sounder. That can't just be a perception. I have no doubt that horses will be fatally injured racing over it, but I am also as convinced that it won't be even close to as many as have been for decades now.

And when my horse is battling down the stretch, I don't wish for his rival to snap a leg. I wish the rider drops the whip, or the bridle breaks or he just gets tired. I know a lot of hard-core handicappers, but not one who wishes injury to horse or rider just to cash a ticket.

repent

11-11-2006 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188

and it would be nice if no more horses had to lose their life for our enjoyment. so, sorry, altho i'm not sold on poly, i'll be damned if i'd want to see another pine island to prove a point.

no,
she died on dirt.
that was not a good thing for our argument.
fortunately I also had RPond on my late pick 4 ticket.
was alive until Bern f*cked it up.

Repent

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