Wells trained Rapid Redux to 22 in a row. McGwire would be proud.

This is the big deal, and I think it's being slightly overlooked initially. Get caught attempting to do something, or actually doing it...and the indictment reads that this is, essentially, wire fraud.

The feds are arguing that the drugging or attempted drugging is an attempt to change the outcome of the race - as those races are transmitted via simulcast (wire) for consumption across state lines.

I'm guessing a place like Rillito Park, which doesn't distribute their signal, is free and clear from this.

My initial reaction to this, after reading the indictments, is that this could be just the first in a monumentally long line of "easy pickings." Whether/how it sticks is a different story, but it feels like this is just the start of a much MUCH bigger deal that is definitely not going to be limited to Penn National.

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

I will believe that Pat when they take down one of the big boys from a major track. Not nobodies at Penn National.

big difference between a mistake and intentionally altering times and being involved in a criminal conspiracy. question is, why did the feds go this route? who got them involved? did someone say the track or the state wasn't doing enough?

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners :rolleyes: that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

I dont believe there is a big difference if the timing company/tracks have been alerted that the accuracy of the times are wrong. If you are knowingly producing and offering faulty times to people using the information to bet over state lines then surely you could be held liable no? People from this board have been talking about this subject for awhile and always expressed frustration that the tracks would rarely even respond when alerted to the issue.

Supposedly the Feds were tipped off about misdeeds at Penn natl right around the Gill issue. I doubt they really care much about racing or the track but an eager Federal prosecutor saw an easy way to pad his record. Busting semi-broke trainers who dont have lawyers on retainers on Federal fraud charges is like a walkover.

I somehow sense Chuck that you think this is a witch hunt. Surely this is about more than 2cc's of lasix...clean trainers have nothing to worry about.

And the guidebook for who is 'suspect' and who isn't is found where?

As a proviso, be aware that many of those walking around wearing white hats take edges as readily as those in the black hats. But certainly the Court of the Internet will make it clear for everyone who the cheaters are who is pure as driven snow.

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

Huh? You realize some of his misinformation was works that didn't actually occur AT ALL....Like I ran the marathon this year in 2hrs and 25 minutes...except I was on my couch.

I am all for a level playing field but criminalizing offenses out of the blue is troublesome. I want the game to make sense but by the same token I find it hard to believe that Sam Webb whose 10% cut of his horses earnings this year is 21000 or Trish Rogers who was caught giving 2 cc of lasix are running criminal conspiracies. If they are only going to go after the actual person giving the drug/med then nothing much will change. You think Juice trainers are hitting the horses themselves? I play by the rules but because most states dont tell you the rules and the PA statues are so wide open for judicial interpretation you dont even know. It is pretty troubling that the adjuncts my horse ran on in MD last month would be consider a federal crime in PA this month.

Is a guidebook necessary? All owners would pressure their trainers to run clean if they face not being able to run their horses's for a year. I own a 20 pct of a couple and will willingly play by those rules.

I understand were you are coming from. Maybe this is the right idea but the wrong case.

I had a filly trst positive for Naproxen a few years back in KY. We had stopped treating her 7 days before the race which was 5 days more than the withdrawl time suggested. There was no mistake on our side because we were acutely aware of the withdrawl time and we actually ran out of the med after her last treatment. I showed the vet records and our own med log to the stewards as evidence. As we found out later the test for naproxen was too sensitive and they were having all kinds of trouble at the lab. No DQ, no suspension, mandatory fine of $500 (after Veitch told me that it would be $250 if I waived my right to appeal). Well under the way the Fed prosecutor is intrpeting the law I could be hauled into Fed court for admitting that we gave the medication that came back positive. Having to defend yourself in Federal Court for mistakes made by others is not something that I want to be subject to.

Again Im not saying that this is ok but it is hardly a felony.

Gotta start higher so they can plead down. That's the game.

Im not a legal expert by any means but based on what we know Webb/Rogers look like cherry picked cases where the PA commission already provided the legwork. If you brought in guys who are taking millions out of the game Federal involvement would seem to be a little more fitting. It is like the Feds getting involved with PED's in professional sports and busting 3 minor league hockey players and ignoring the NFL.

Yeah and squeeze him for info probably

i would have to think that this will be a real 'come to jesus' moment for many involved in racing.
typically an entity will try to find a really good case as a test case, to try to set precedent. i would have to think any trainer or any track personnel is taking a long, hard look at how they function, and whether changes should be made.
does anyone really want the feds involved? probably not. but these subjects have been hashed out repeatedly, with no real changes made, because no one has had the power to change things.

i have to think someone made this call to the feds to get this going, because no one else either had the ability or the wherewithall to make a profound change.

and of course the case is cherry picked, chuck. that's how this stuff is done. they won't waste their time on a case that might not go their way. somebody has to be the poster child.

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp? I believe he should be charged of a crime for misleading the public with his infinite wisdom of handicapping

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

The published workout info in the program/pp's in the vast vast majority of the time is accurate...however it tells such a small part of the story that using it as a significant handicapping factor is certainly risky. Private clocker reports clearly can offer value due to the additional information that they provide. This additional info which includes splits, outs, rider encouragement, workmates, and other info is not free....you have to pay for the private reports. Keep in mind that private reports are not regulated and are not without inaccuracies and/or incomplete info

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...
I'm not saying nor am I naïve enough to believe that all official workout info is completely accurate..but just like official race times the vast majority of the times the info is in fact accurate.
Once again without splits, outs, observation of horse/rider, ect ect...the final time of a workout provides limited value

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day? How accurate do you think they are?

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

That's not my point though. How accurate do you think those works are when they show up in the PP's the next time the horse runs? The work which was just announced over the loudspeaker prior to the horse running, in order for him to be eligible that day. The workouts in the program are not near always accurate.

I wont question your assertion regarding announced late works...I also do not say program works are "always" accurate...I will maintain my assertion that the vast vast majority of program workout final times (while of limited value) are in fact accurate.

lol...btw was just listening to the churchill preview...they announced that a runner that last raced as an announced gelding is running today as a colt not a gelding...wonder if he got his back or someone else's...lol

The ultimate value of the information should not be in question. Value is always in the eye of the interpreter. But there is an official keeper of the data

I'm no lawyer, but I highly recommend everyone read the indictments, specifically of the clocker, if you haven't already. The federal involvement is made pretty clear. Here is my understanding...

1. The ability to bet on races from out of state is an exercise in interstate commerce, a power overseen by the federal government. This came through in the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978

2. The distribution of the signal across state lines is, essentially, a wire.

3. The feds allege, in the indictments, that attempting to or actually being caught injecting a horse with a substance that is prohibited, or at a time that is prohibited, is an act or an attempt to manipulate the outcome of the race.

4. As the race is distributed over "wire" across state lines, attempting to manipulate the outcome (or provide purposely incorrect information which is offered in the official record of the race and details of each horse, used by the bettors to draw their own conclusions), is deemed fraudulent - again, by the allegations put forth in the indictment.

Does it seem that hundreds of trainers or some number of clockers could be identified as in violation of the law, as it is attempting to be applied now? Yes.

Does it seem this is an attempt to set a new precedent, and thereby presumably clean-up the sport? Yes, absolutely...at least in someone's mind.

Paulick has the link to the indictments in his story:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...penn-national/

So then...how about the horse Payson Dave just mentioned? Running as a colt today but last time was run under the listing that he was gelded? Where would that fall in all this?