His power and physique. The way he takes charge of a race. The way that he annihilates his competition. His explosive turn of foot. His character on the track. The fact that he can rate or lead. The way that he moves, so fluid and even and powerful. Even his eye…. When I watch him, I know that I am seeing something special. It is the way that he wins, and the way that he looks while he is winning, not just his fast times or his margin of victory.

The mechanics of a champion racehorse are definitely there. At least, I see them, and so do many others.

That is racing, BTW....everybody knows that when the top contenders get their hearts broken by the best horse (in this case DC) they begin to really flale in the stretch when the winner is runnig away from them and their not used to losing...when there is a runaway winner of a race you OFTEN see crappy plodding-style horses come along and close to clunk-up in the exotic placings without ever seriously threatening...I believe this is because horses who are not used to losing and get their herarts and confidence shattered when they can't match strides with a horse...I see it all the time...it is actually a classic handicapping angle if you can predict a runaway winner....

Horses like Simpatico Bribon and Invasor were actuallyb trying to win the race and trying to do so from the 3/8 pole to the wire....while a horse like Testamony, who did not have to ship and was familiar and confortable with the surroundings, wasn't trying to win the race so he didn't take out of his conventional style and comfort zone....

If the best horses always finished in the order they were supposed to run this game would be extinct....By your theory, a horse like Super Frolic is better than Sun King then if the only time they ran against each other Super Frolic clearly beat him by finishing 4th when Sun King faded well back in last yera's BC Classic, right?...No....Sun King was TRYING to win the race and got caught up in an ambitious pace before getting his head handed to him by Saint Liam and Flower Alley on the far turn, while Supah Blitz enjoyed a perfect trip and picked up the pieces for 4th at 70-1 while never threatening to win the race....it happens all of the time, man....you know that...

Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.

If there is a horse alive who gets too much commentary and debate over, its Discreet Cat.
He beat a maiden field that looked great at the time, but the 2nd place horse Superfly is still eligible for entry level allowance conditions, the 3rd horse Ivanoksky just won the other day FINALLY for maiden 45 on the grass, and the 4th horse is still a maiden.
His race in Dubai to me is like a tossout, as are all dubai races. I find it sickening that Brass Hat's connections have to give back 1.2 mill, while horses like Alwutamakel, Testimony, etc all run huge races on that day every year. I'm not buying anything they try and sell each year on that day. Invasor simply didnt fire.

His comeback at the Spa, well he beat Accountforgold, who came back and got beat in the same allowance condition the other day by an ordinary horse.
The race on Sunday, well again it was great, but beating Valid Notebook won't get you a plaque on Union Avenue up here.

Until this horse actually runs against, and beats someone, hes just a freakish horse whos shown he can run awesome figs agaisnt noone. And I've seen a few of those over the years.

I think hes one of the fastest horses I've ever seen to be honest. But at some point it would be really nice if he actually faced someone worth facing, I mean its October of his 3 year old year and hes run 4 times.

Sounds like the perfect man. Oh wait you're talking about a horse. Uhh nvmd. :D

Joel, I really don't think anyone takes that day seriously anymore.
After Almutawakel won off like the "champion" he was(LOL!!) and couldnt hit the board in a money allowance race that fall at Belmont, well, all I can say is thats SOME form reversal.
And after The most disgraceful thing I've ever seen in the Brass Hat debacle, I'd have to say anyone who brings a truly good horse over there has to be kidding. I don't think its a very level playing field over there.

That being said, I have no gripes with calling Discreet cat potentially one of the fastest milers in decades, provided he actually beats someone besides Valid Notebook, Superfly, Testimony(LOL!!), and Accountforgold. Thats not exactly an allstar cast there.

It is funny you say Bernardini and talk mechanics without rementioning his name because that is one of his strengths...he is a monster of an animal that moves IMPECCABLY...he moves like a cat and his hooves never appear to be on the ground for very long duirng his natural gait...If you can't see the superior athleticism that he possesses than I'm sorry about that because it is VERY evident judging by the way he carries himself, the way he moves, his beautiful pedigree and physique, his disposition and classy features and look that he is a champion to me...very clear he is something special and I don't throw that word around a lot in this game....you always look for something to knock in a horse and he has nothing...none, nada....or at least i haven't found anything looking at him with high scrutiny....I evaluate the upper echelon of horses by the number of weaknesses i percieve that they have, and he is the only horse I've ever seen that has none in my book...he rates out a 10 on my scale....he is as close to perfect as you'll ever see in a horse..

I believe he is the best horse we've had in our game the last 25 years...I really do...and when I say 'best horse' I mean that in a veryb thorough way...I look at him physically, how talented he is, his pedigree and what he will offer in the breeding sheds, etc.....the full cycle of how he could impact our sport....and I've come to the conclusion that there has been no better in my lifetime.....he is horse that could change our industry....100% impactful on and off the track in the breeding sheds...these don't come along but maybe once every 20-30 years....I know thats high praise and may will highly disagree, but I've been saying this since May and it is funny how everytime he cruises that I get less and less people disagreeing with me ....

BTW, the Shieks have convictions that run deeper than trying to win a race IMO...I just don't see them as being the character of people to feel like they have to cheat...I just don't...t makes no sense at all....They cut people's hands off over there whe you steal...I just cannot see it....those people over there have a MUCH stricter civil code and value system than Americans do on average....just saying...

Also, they love when the American's come to World Cup day..Why would they jeopardize that? Money is never an issue with them, and if cheating did happen there, I would bet aboyut anything that the high-ups had NO knowledge of it.....think about it...

Yes what those pricks did to the Bradleys was reprehensible. I guess that's what happens when you deal with rich nomads.

:What :eek:

here we go with people taking things persinally again....the funny thing is that i just noticed you telling m,e I needed 'medical attention' in a post earlier in the thread...

This is when i retire from a thread...when the ridiculousness begins...Thanks for the conversation guys....see you in another thread down the road....

This is very dispaoointing it always results to more than a debate :(

That's unfortunate. I always long for the overly positive pro-sheikh posts.

There is no such thing as a perfect man...:D

But there is such a thing as a perfect horse.

There's a BIG difference between telling someone you think they are crazy for having an opinion and giving them a HorseRacing 101 lecture which I would say is what you did.

Oh, golly gee, you mean horses chasing sometimes don't run their best efforts, and tire from chasing a leader they can't beat and lose to an inferior horse who simply sucked up? Gee willakers...I didn't know that. Thanks for f'n clueing me in.

Come on, Joel, you can do better than that.

Buffy isn't here so I feel obligated...

Now, be nice...:)

Its in the same league as what Illinois just did to Wolfson. I find it VERY HARD to believe that Wolfson's horse was the only horse who raced that day who had trace levels of antiimflammatories!!!!!!!! Its called keeping the money "in house". Especially since the guy had never had a single postive in his life.
Guy I know shipped a horse to a small track near here for a stakes race. Brought in a NYRA jock also. Funny thing happened at the gate, they tailed him and teh asst starter wasnt real good with him in the gate, geez who'd figure? He broke bad of course and lost all chance.

Than don't ask me questions about how Testimony could beat a horse like Invasor if you don't want to hear the reason, got it?

You started this, Andy...everything was a fair debate until you started throwing your frequent jabs about how i kiss Godolphin's a ss and that I 'need medical attention'.... I guess I should have taken it that you were insulting my intelligence by asking me a question that would provide a handicapping 101 answer....

I expected more from a figure like you....:(

Joel,
Lemme put this another way, so you can see it from someone elses point of view.
Testimony is just awful, incredibly awful. For him to run 2nd in any kind of grade one race, well, the others wouldnt have to get tired from chasing, they'd have to fall down.
The "101 lecture" as it was put, was an insult to the intelligence of anyone whose seen testimony's form in every other race hes ever run.
We all know how horses can spit the bit when they middle move or chase other horses, and how horses can suck up in a big race by saving ground and just riding the last 1/8th out to pass the dead horses.
But have you ever SEEN Testimony? Him running 2nd is in the same league with Almutawakel winning the Classic(ever see his form?!!!!).
I think its safe to say that many of us detected a long time ago that the home track horses run shockingly good races that day that they never reproduce.

You are the biggest Godolphin cheerleader NOT on their payroll. Do you deny that? Come on! You, like me, seem to be suspicious of everyone....but somehow you have decided Godolphin runs a clean operation. You love them....it's obvious. I hate them....that's also obvious.

Now you are taking the " medical attention " comment personally? I don't think so, I think you know I was kidding around but it seems to work for your agument now.

It would be one thing to suggest that you believe Testimony sucked up because the viable competitors all tired from chasing...but to explain it to me in the manner you did seemed a little over the top. But, I will concede that I MAY have overreacted, and ask you....how come Testimony wasn't able to suck up one bit in either of his US races...both of which had contentious paces?

I don't care, man....I'm a good-natured dude and when people repeatedly come on hear and start negative drections to the debates it gets pretty old at this point.....I don't mean to insult anybodys intelligence and he should know that by now...he asked a question ad I answered it sincerely as to what I thought happpened...I mean, hell, anybody who saw the race could see that DC was the easy winner when they straightened for home....the others were flailing and it set up for some rat to run up for a cheap placing.....

The bottomline here is that I am shocked and a little disapopointed that I was jabbed in a negative way by the person who did it...I could easily see others and it wouldn't surprise me as much....I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but everything I have written in this thread has been light-hearted and not wth any negative intentions, yet I still cannot avoid stuff like the following wrote back to me:

<<<Don't f'n lecture me and talk down to me....especially with that kind of crap.>>>

...and crap about needing medical help.....it just gets old with all of this negativity on these damn threads....

I'm just disappointed right now.....:(

I'm still waiting for an answer to Almutawakel. Same thing as Testimony.

It's obvious you haven't met me. I can run the 40 in 11.2

Get over it Joel...I did.

If you don't think you are opening yourself up to be teased about your affection for Godolphin then you need medi....ah you know what I mean.

You think the rest of us here DON'T need medical attention ( present poster in cluded )? Be serious.

Joel you are only considering one possible explanation, I think thats the point.
In light of the consistent performances by the "house" horses on that day, year after year, would you not be a tad suspicious of results there.
I'm not talking down to you, and I'm sure you probably remember the data, but do you recall Almutawakel's World Cup win?
Gimme an explanation for that performance if you can. Because years later, I'm still scratching my head.

LOL Pillow Pants...:D

A) Remember, when I make a comment on here that it is NOT just to you....I am protecting my debates for every other person that reads this thread...you should undertsand that by now....these weren't PMs, this was a LIVE thread open to the public to see so I wanted to explain my point - like I always do - to the people not as educated to our sport as you or I...I'm really surprised you didn't see this...

B) As for the medical attention quote...I could really careless about what anyone on here personally thinks about me...that is why I give my name out when others are scared to...I believe in my ability to analyze this sprt as good as any so I say what I feel and I hope some people like the thoroughness and honesty of it...if you think that comment bothered me, your wrong...it was just an indicator as to where this thread was heading and it proved true once again - unfortunately....I have been listening you jabbing me for the last 3 months about how i liss the Shieks' ass in everytghing I do....I got yuour point on that like 4 months ago....yet, i've never lashed back or let it bother because i could careless...

c) So I like their horses, who gives a ****?...You don't...thats great...good for you, man. I also don't like (by the way, hate is a strong word) the freaking Yankees and I like the Braves, but who cares? Fans are fans....am I wrong because I like their horses and operation, no?...thats ridiculous man...just ridiculous...

Again, I'm a tad shocked here...:(

I think that in the breeding shed Bernardini will impact the breed dramatically; this will be in the manner of his brilliant sire A.P. indy and his immortal grandsire Seattle Slew. This will be further resurrection of the Bold Ruler line.

I heard Elocutionist's connections are still more than a little confused about his sudden dirt form considering he apparantly didn't handle it prior to changing hands.

What happened to that horse by the way?

I'd have to see it again...I know he's a Machivallian horse and I actually remmebered liking the horse some, but I cannot remember the race off hand right now.....sorry

I don't. :D

Well... maybe I do. By the way, I won't be on the Bernardini bandwagon until after he wins the JCGC. I think he's just as guilty as Discreet Cat in beating "nobodies."

Died of a heart attck after runnig 3rd on the turf behind hurricane run....I hated hinm on dirt too, actually....he was a Red Ransom wth STRICTLY turf action from what I couild tell and I hated his prospects on dirt....But I will say that he is a classy horse who was rplaying a home game in the World Cup against what I considered was a horrible renewal of the race...I mean, i like the story behind brass hat and all, but we all know that he was what he was and it sure wasn't a super horse.....

Electrocutionist beat a bad bunch, so he didnt have to be great on dirt...

Yup, Joel, we all have our rooting interests. Myself, I root for my friends. I root for the Baltimore Orioles and I root for Nick Zito's horses. But, I don't constantly trump up their chances while ignoring reality. I am sure I am in some ways blinded but I try to at least keep my personal rooting interests in check when posting...or at least I am up front about it.

I like that you love Godolphin, it gives me constant opportunities to tease you, and you have to admit you open yourself up for it. My actual question is what is the genesis of this affection...if you don't mind.

Lemme condense it for you, he never had any good form above the grade 3 level. He freaked out and won easily, then later that year couldnt hit the board in an overnight handicap at Belmont.
I only bring this up because you bash a lotta guys and charge form reversals by their horses and elude to methods they may be using.
You love the Sheiks? Gee I hadn't noticed,lol. What I'm saying is that its ok to love a team or trainer or owner, but in order to be fair wouldn't it be safe to say that some of these horses owned by the folks you love show similiar characteristics to the horses trained by the guys you like to bash?
I think thats a very fair way to put it.

Brass Hat IS a super horse. What he's accomplished is absolutely incredible considering the injury he had to come back from.

Buthes not well bred or owned by Sheikhs so that doesnt matter.:rolleyes:

I agree he beat a relatively bad bunch, but it still surprises me that he handled the dirt even that effectively, and to be honest I think the performances by Godolphin horses on Dubai World Cup day are often a little surprising.

Yes, I was joking, as I know he's dead and frankly he is on my list, which is growing WAY too rapidly, of horses that died mysteriously very shortly after dramatically improving their form. It seems to me Godolphin has horses on this list just like a lot of others that you and I would agree are AT LEAST a little suspicious. But, you know me, I'm just paranoid.

I think most of you are being too hard on Joel when it comes to Godolphin. They just happen to have some of the best horses in their barn. Lots of money = lots of nice horses. I don't think that Godolphin needs Joel to promote them... Bernardini does that.

Not meaning to take sides, but I agree Cajun.

Also, he picked out these horses at the beginning of the year before everyone saw what monsters they were. He had Bernardini in the Preakness. It's not like he started talking about them after the fact. I think that the sheiks horses are wonderful and by some of your standards, I "promote" them as well. Of course, I didn't catch on as quickly to the depth of talent in that stable as Joel did... I admire his boldness, and in this case, he happened to be right.

Yeah but picking the sheikhs horses to do well is like picking the Yankees to win it all. You're going to be right eventually. BFD.

He didn't just pick the sheiks horses to do well. He said that they were the best horses in the world, and he specifically named them...

What does BFD stand for? I'm probably going to feel really stupid when you tell me because it is probably really simple and obvious....

Big f'ing deal. :D

Well, that's not very nice...