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cmorioles 05-28-2012 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless Leader (Post 864279)
YYaaawnnnnnnn !!!!! Your entire argument is flawed and totally ridiculous. Stop whining already. Your are absolutely 100% incorrect about virtually everything you have said on this topic.
Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

freddymo 05-28-2012 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by docicu3 (Post 864034)
Good to see you IC.....hope the world is treating you well.

A couple of small points, you already know, I thought might add to what's been said above....

1) Lasix is a sulfur containing diuretic far more similar to Bumex, which is another sulfur containing loop diuretic, than Premarin which is a conjugated estrogen or hormone commonly used in gynecology to limit menstral bleeding by a whole different mechanism. I guess the common thread is the limiting of bleeding to avoid the dreaded 3rd time bleed and a horses forced retirement.

Lasix first works by a) increasing the capacitance of any lung or making more small pipes or cappilaries while holding the same amount of blood in pulmonary circulation, thus lowering pressure in the horse's or human's lungs.

If given IV these effects take place in 20 minutes and last for six hours hence the name. The second effect or b) is to abolish the electrical/osmotic gradient in the kidney cell or nephron responsible for holding on to free water when inhibited a triggering of a fairly massive diuresis of very dilute urine will follow.

It blows my mind that the CHRB compares Lasix to premarin by substitution without making the public aware as Premarin is no where near as effective as a diuretic ..........very very bizarre!!

The metabolic alkalosis it causes does give a horse an advantage racing in that it takes longer and further in a race for a lasix horse to become acidotic or uncomfortable in competition which is another way of saying for it to develop a lactic acidosis because for some period it is neutralizing the acid generated in competition. Further considerations pertaining to aerobic or anaerobic metabolism add more or less to the mechanism above......phew!!

You are going to discuss this with Dr Riot, the hack veterinarian who speaks on behalf of all industry. If she deems your thoughts valid we can have Rollo google your findings for validation.

Round Pen 05-28-2012 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864056)
This vet is the equilivant of Rush Limbaugh commenting on politics.


Kind of what I thought To Chuck he is Definitely better known for Being Dr Dolittle or the Horse Whisperer

cmorioles 05-28-2012 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Pen (Post 864287)
Kind of what I thought To Chuck he is Definitely better known for Being Dr Dolittle or the Horse Whisperer
Yet nobody has disputed anything he wrote, odd.

Fearless Leader 05-28-2012 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864280)
Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.
Sid Gustafson, D.V.M., is a novelist and equine veterinarian specializing in thoroughbred sports medicine and equine behavior. He currently practices regulatory veterinary medicine, representing the safety and welfare of thoroughbred racehorses.


The bold type in the guy's resume should tell you all you need to know. This guy is as far off the mark and delusional as Glenn Thompson, another novelist on the subject, is.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless Leader (Post 864289)
Sid Gustafson, D.V.M., is a novelist and equine veterinarian specializing in thoroughbred sports medicine and equine behavior. He currently practices regulatory veterinary medicine, representing the safety and welfare of thoroughbred racehorses.


The bold type in the guy's resume should tell you all you need to know. This guy is as far off the mark and delusional as Glenn Thompson, another novelist on the subject, is.
Again, what did he say that was inaccurate?

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864269)
I just don't find forcing an owner to spend money to drug a horse that doesn't need it to be on a level playing field with the other horses fair. Crazy, I know. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll never believe that many horses need Lasix when the rest of the world doesn't use it. Also, our country did just fine without it for the better part of a century.

At least you aren't arguing that Lasix isn't a performance enhancer any longer.
So now the concern is the owners financial welfare? Of all the things owners are "forced" to spend the $20 for a shot of lasix is the cheapest and most effective per dollar spent.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years or supposing what goes on in foreign countries to be a waste of time.

Fearless Leader 05-28-2012 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864321)
Again, what did he say that was inaccurate?
The novelist hasn't stated a single fact. All he has done is state his opinion to try and support his cleanhorseracing.org/no lasix agenda. For you to accept any of this as gospel speaks volumes.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864330)
So now the concern is the owners financial welfare? Of all the things owners are "forced" to spend the $20 for a shot of lasix is the cheapest and most effective per dollar spent.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years or supposing what goes on in foreign countries to be a waste of time.
It isn't just spending the money. In what alternate reality world is it acceptable just to give drugs to nearly every participant, and those that don't take it are at a disadvantage. I mean really, that is nuts.

You are saying if you don't want to drug your horse you are at a disadvantage, but that is fine...just can drug them all. And who cares if they have to spend $20, we rob them so many other ways. So those not using drugs are penalized. Nice. Maybe the NTRA could adapt that as a new slogan. I guess it beats "Go, Baby, Go", right. I like the ring to it..."Drug them all!"

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless Leader (Post 864331)
The novelist hasn't stated a single fact. All he has done is state his opinion to try and support his cleanhorseracing.org/no lasix agenda. For you to accept any of this as gospel speaks volumes.
This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864280)
Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.
Actually we arrived at this point because far too many people have bought into propaganda without understanding the design behind the plan. You are being duped into believing nonsense from people like Sid Guftason who is trying to promote his holistic crap and bs books. Phipps and company have tricked you into believing that the elimination of lasix is going to lead to some sort of prosperity and level playing field, ignoring all other issues by focusing on something that is noted in the program giving it a tangible feel. A ban on lasix makes the sport more expensive for owners a group already shrinking, almost assuredly will lead to more NY Times "incidents" with more horses bleeding severely and less formful races as various treatments (all unknown to bettors) will work to widely varying degrees.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864280)
Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864332)
It isn't just spending the money. In what alternate reality world is it acceptable just to give drugs to nearly every participant, and those that don't take it are at a disadvantage. I mean really, that is nuts.

You are saying if you don't want to drug your horse you are at a disadvantage, but that is fine...just can drug them all. And who cares if they have to spend $20, we rob them so many other ways. So those not using drugs are penalized. Nice. Maybe the NTRA could adapt that as a new slogan. I guess it beats "Go, Baby, Go", right. I like the ring to it..."Drug them all!"
I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864333)
This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.
So if every horse is in effect milkshakes then why milkshake?

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864334)
Actually we arrived at this point because far too many people have bought into propaganda without understanding the design behind the plan. You are being duped into believing nonsense from people like Sid Guftason who is trying to promote his holistic crap and bs books. Phipps and company have tricked you into believing that the elimination of lasix is going to lead to some sort of prosperity and level playing field, ignoring all other issues by focusing on something that is noted in the program giving it a tangible feel. A ban on lasix makes the sport more expensive for owners a group already shrinking, almost assuredly will lead to more NY Times "incidents" with more horses bleeding severely and less formful races as various treatments (all unknown to bettors) will work to widely varying degrees.
Actually, I believe nothing of the sort. I just know Lasix is a performance enhancer and have said so all along. That has really been the only thing I've argued about.

I don't care if horses get Lasix, but it should be fair. There are other ways around it. Why not give horses not using it a 5 pound weight break and/or make the price to claim them higher?

Drug them all...sounds the best answer to me.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864337)
I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.
Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864333)
This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.
So if every horse is in effect milkshakes then why milkshake? It is ridiculous to believe this nonsense. It is like saying that going 45.3 to the half is the same in dirt races and turf races because the pacesetters both lost.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864338)
So if every horse is in effect milkshakes then why milkshake?
How would I know why cheaters cheat? It isn't like we are dealing with a bunch of Einsteins now is it? Are you trying to tell me all these trainers know all the science of milkshakes and Lasix? Give me a break already.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864333)
This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.
[quote=cmorioles;864342]Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?[/

Janet del Castillo sells books on training

Indian Charlie 05-28-2012 02:40 PM
Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

Danzig 05-28-2012 02:53 PM
When there is opposition, how does one decide who is the zealot filled with emotion, and who uses logic? Or is it based solely on who one is in agreement with?

I have asked several times without a reposne from cm. What is your opinion on what is best for the horse?

If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome? What do you expect to occur if there is a ban? I posted where NY had an 80 % reduction in visible bleeding after allowing lasix. Do you wish to see a possible 80% increase should lasix be banned?

my miss storm cat 05-28-2012 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 864373)
Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.
I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc :p

Carry on.

Round Pen 05-28-2012 04:35 PM
Has anyone actually taken the time to read the link in the NY times article which directs you to the Minutes from the KRHC meeting I think Dr Sids Comments start at Page 169 (I think). HE has the Solution to Stop Horses From Bleeding,The only thing is You might have to live in Fantasy land to Implement his ideals.:D

Round Pen 05-28-2012 04:59 PM
Was Just reading on the Thorograph Forum and ran accross this comment about this subject which I wanted to share with You guys:

Brief comment as requested by TGJB:

Lasix as one injection prior to a race or work has a predictably very minor and small raise in blood pH, nowhere near what milkshaking does to the blood pH. The TCO2 levels we measure, what is "over" and not, takes this small and predictable rise into consideration. It is about the same alkalynizing effect as some normal feeds and weather.

This vet is way over the line calling lasix the same as a milkshake. That's patently absurd.

And it sure sounds like this guy was involved with (exposed to) alot of cheating. But he says he was with standardbreds in the 1960's, 70's, 80's so yes, that was true 30 years ago (standardbred guys would do anything to a horse - the thoroughbred guys would follow their leads)

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Fearless Leader 05-28-2012 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by my miss storm cat (Post 864386)
I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc :p

Carry on.

Reading this guy's never ending, misguided, ridiculous, inaccurate rantings has me wanting to blow my own head off. I feel dumber for having read them.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864339)

I don't care if horses get Lasix, but it should be fair. There are other ways around it. Why not give horses not using it a 5 pound weight break and/or make the price to claim them higher?
What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?

Is it fair that Sheikh Mo's trainers have an unlimited budget to treat their horses with all the latest treatments when the rest of us dont have that luxury? Is it fair that certain trainers seem to get races written specifically for them? Is it fair that some of us go to the yearling sale armed with budgets of thousands when others have millions?

The idea that there are those who are "forced" to use lasix and should be rewarded for not using it is completely flawed. Why not give horses who draw outside posts in two turn races less weight? Why not give rookie trainers 3 pounds like apprentice jockeys? Why not give horses ridden by less than 8% jockeys 2 pounds?

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864345)
How would I know why cheaters cheat? It isn't like we are dealing with a bunch of Einsteins now is it? Are you trying to tell me all these trainers know all the science of milkshakes and Lasix? Give me a break already.

I don't think you need to have a masters degree in psychology to figure out why cheaters cheat?

And this guy is trying to tell you that every horse getting lasix is in effect milkshaked. Which of course is ludicrous.

And lets not act naive like trainers are milkshaking their own horses or are producing the materials used for the pseudo-shakes...

Coach Pants 05-28-2012 07:11 PM
Meh. I'm leaning towards a ban on Lasix. It's not like these trainers nowadays are deserving of having things their way. They don't run their horses enough to have a seat at the table any longer. They need to be bullied into either quitting or running their horses more.

This nonsense of banning lasix ruining the game is just that.

But realistically I'm more concerned with getting American bettors involved with Australian, Japanese, and Hong Kong racing. Or at the very least giving those of us who bet those races access to the local pools.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 864373)
Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.
It isnt a belief system. It is called experience in the field combined with a working knowledge of the substances plus frank, off the record discussions with those who would be considered experts.

http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Performa...36575&sr=8-1#_

Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.

RolloTomasi 05-28-2012 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864489)
Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.
Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

RolloTomasi 05-28-2012 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 864379)
If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome?
It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

Riot 05-28-2012 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 864519)
It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?
The information you want has been known for years. Read any basic pharmacology text. Lasix is a very well-used and common drug in multiple species, for decades.

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH affects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 864481)
What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?
We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

Riot 05-28-2012 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 864514)
Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.
I think Chuck's point is that we knew most of this most basic drug information 30 years ago. We've been using lasix in race horses for over 40 years.

Riot 05-28-2012 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864522)
We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?
You should stop falsely demonizing lasix for things it does not do. Pretending it's a hop is simply false. "What lasix does" isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of measured reality and science.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 864524)
You should stop falsely demonizing lasix for things it does not do. Pretending it's a hop is simply false. "What lasix does" isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of measured reality and science.
A vet said it, not me.

Drug em all, Riot, that is the ticket.

Riot 05-28-2012 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 864525)
A vet said it, not me.

Drug em all, Riot, that is the ticket.
Thousands of other vets say his opinion is a minority, and his views border on "crankdom".

Join those of us worrying about real drug problems in racing.

Stop chasing laser beams pointed to the wall by a few ignorant fools.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 864514)
Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.
What that book does very clearly is show that the bullshit that we are fed about what was going on in the pollyanna days prior to lasix use is not how it is actually was. While the testing has advanced it is very obvious that many of the same drugs that are being passed off as inventions of the modern day trainer were actually in use in the 70's and in some cases at much, much higher allowable levels.

Funny how everything was great back then but now those same things are the enemy of the horse.

cmorioles 05-28-2012 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 864527)
Thousands of other vets say his opinion is a minority, and his views border on "crankdom".

Join those of us worrying about real drug problems in racing.

Stop chasing laser beams pointed to the wall by a few ignorant fools.
Thousands of other vets aren't being published in the New York Times. Funny, you say I should listen to vets, until they say something you don't like.

Drug them all. That has really helped the sport. The game couldn't be in better shape.

RolloTomasi 05-28-2012 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 864521)
Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).
Interesting. 2 weeks ago you blasted me for suggesting that lasix affects the acid-base status of a horse. Now you're acting like you're the one bringing that information to the table. Pathetic.

Me, 2 weeks ago:

...lasix has other effects aside from reducing the severity of bleeding, namely causing a ~3% decrease in body weight (ie upwards to 30lbs) and changing the acid-base balance of the blood (ie the same principle behind "milkshaking" albeit at a less dramatic level).

Your response:

No, lasix does NOT change the acid-base balance of the blood. Anybody who knows how this loop diuretic works knows that. If that were true, every horse given lasix would have a TCO2 positive.

Ah...the intricate cross-thread backpedal. Yet another deadly tool in your sizeable weapons cache of cyber-terrorism.

Well done.

Cannon Shell 05-28-2012 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 864519)
It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?
The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.


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