Based on him getting caught several times for the use of illicit drugs in his horses, and the known masking abilities of the milkshake, I'm going to say there is nothing overtly harmful in that question I posed to Danzig above. Baking soda, glucose and a couple of other innocuous items.

er, my top comment was regarding the portion of the article underneath. it had nothing whatsoever to do with you or the milshake discussion. not sure why you thought it was pointed towards you. i said poor doug and then showed an excerpt from an article about how he says he's being picked on.

My mistake.

because it's not an exact science? we all know different horses metabolize differently.
with the amount of times he's been caught, you've got to wonder how often he cheats.
the fact that many trainers have zero positives tells quite a tale as well. btw, if his position is that their testing is flawed, wouldn't it be popping multiple trainers?

as for the milkshaking, since it's currently banned, i feel zero pity for those who use it. unlike lasix, it seems it has a masking quality and enhances performance. using something that's banned is an attempt to give yourself an edge that others won't have, as they won't break the rules. nor should they.

I don't think the masking effect is firmly established, and, if it occurs, may only apply to some drugs and not others.

http://bit.ly/JJgpPH

So based on the stats used by NYT, is Doug O'Neill basically the trainer version of Ruidoso Downs?

Just bringing some positive to the week...

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/tr...-team-o-neill/

I rue the day I used Let Me Google That For You on here to answer someone sarcastically.

Not sure why you used that on me, as I have a pretty solid understanding of sodium bicarbonate (I have read books on it's use in humans).

You know what is kind of silly about the idea of using bicarbonates as a diuretic to flush drugs?

It's that there is a really safe, common and totally legal substance that is a highly effective diuretic. It's called dihydrogen monoxide.

Some will say it's dangerous stuff though, which you can read about here. I use this all the time however to increase urine output in myself.

http://tinyurl.com/yhtm2aq

why would a horse still be racing with a chronic suspensory problem?

I'm going to go ahead and say that, rightly or wrongly, there are plenty of horses out there running with a chronic suspensory issue.

I've done some more reading on this stuff I previously stated (in my post above) was a safe and effective diuretic, and I think I'm going to have to retract my earlier statement.

I cannot believe they give this stuff to horses after all!

http://www.dhmo.org/truth/Dihydrogen-Monoxide.html

you could very well be correct. especially at the low level tracks. But when you hear the word "chronic" and it has to do with a ligament or tendon, it is best for the horse too be off munching grass somewhere.

i went back and re-read your response to see if i missed anything. you asked why lasix was given to horses who don't bleed.
from the other lasix discussion begun yesterday, it appears there's no way to know when a horse will suffer a bleeding episode, and of course you'd also have no way of knowing the severity of a bleeding-since you don't know one's coming til it's there.
imo, better to prevent an episode that may come, since there's no way to know ahead of time.
we'd all be better off if we knew when things were going to happen!
also, if a horse suddenly had an episode, the damage could be permanent. i feel it's better to err and prevent, than not use something that's available and be left with a lung-damaged horse.

Now on the front page of Yahoo!: Derby-winning trainer's shady past

Because I'm even a bigger douche bag than you? That's what they used to say back in the day. And those horsey girls were never wrong!

I do know you have a lot of knowledge on some of these issues, so I was not implying to the contrary. My knowledge of drugs is lesser in scope, but perhaps more...hands on, but limited to humans. And cats.

hahah!

I guess he didn't get the nickmame Drug O'Neill by mistake.

Wow, I've been called dogmatic and a douche bag in the last 24 hours!

I don't think I've ever been called either before, but I've been called worse.

Some of the comments on that article are laughable. One person said something about Ferdinand, the "triple crown winner". Wow.

Seabiscuit trainer Tom Smith's suspension the year before his Derby win with Jet Pilot:
http://www.governmentlaw.org/files/t..._tom_smith.pdf

Fascinating article, though I think the gist of it is that the process really stunk in 1945.

"In an era of indiscriminate use of narcotics to stimulate horses..."

The good old days...

Lasix is a thousand times safer than milkshaking. I could give every one of you a lasix injection, and even those of you with kidney and cardiac problems wouldn't get in trouble.

Lasix dilutes the urine. 20-30 years ago, when testing capability was poor, it could dilute out an illegal drug. It hasn't been able to do that for decades. Our testing is too sensitive. So no - lasix doesn't mask drugs. The loop diuretics have extremely well-known pharmacologic actions, and are extremely safe when used therapeutically. They have a rather large margin of safety, especially considering that the race day dose is the low end of the therapeutic dosing range.

Milkshaking? Even if just baking soda and glucose? It doesn't mask a thing either. That's absurd. It's an attempt to alter a horses blood acid-base balance, and it's killed many horses. Sudden death hasn't been uncommon with bad milkshaking. It's very dangerous.

This sport is filled with so much outrightly false nonsense and allegations, it's literally become dangerous to the horses.

Opinion and fact are two very different things, and confusing them kills horses. We can no longer allow old wives tales and falsehoods about drugs in race horses to persist in the 21st century. That some of the biggest names in racing are repeating the falsehoods is sad and dangerous to the sport and the horses.

Yeah, we can go back to 1200-lb animals coked up or on heroin or speed - yay! :eek:

Are you serious? They really raced horses on heroin?

I could see the rationale for coke, but heroin? That would be one pretty docile competitor.

If I recall from my drug days (by that I mean 7th grade Health Class unit on drugs), horses react differently to it. I think its use on equines is how it got the nickname Horse.

Kink with an explanation of how horses react to heroin:
http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2...-called-horse/

EDIT- I just saw that typo, but it made me laugh so I'm leaving it.

Horses react differently than humans, can react badly to some opiates. That's why so many horses used to die coming up from anesthesia after broken bone repair. They'd be panicky and kicking, groggy and staggering, due to the drugs used for pain control. Blow their surgical repairs apart and die.

Ruffian, unfortunately, comes to mind.

Heroin was nicknamed "horse" because of it's equine use early in the last century. To copy a bit from Risk's link, above:

I'll settle for Clen, equipoise, and tren acetate. lasix too hard

thats the one that got me too.

but i will root for the horse until he loses. i want a triple crown before i say goodbye.

i remember reading somewhere that the whirlaway used to have a little ball of heroin or opium put on his tongue before he won his triple crown races

I like this quote particularly:

“We run pure horses.”

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/p...,1265988.story

yeah, nice....and his 'daggers thrown' line....because, you know, these accusations all come only from envy-not from drug positives. that's why so many trainers get rap sheets.

except that they don't.

oy vey ismir

:zz::wf

So the potential Triple Crown winning trainer is only facing a 45 day ban now. That's something.

ridiculous. just another day in racing.

but acccording to the drf article, he has to stay clean for 18 months to avoid the rest of the days. anyone want to wager on him staying out of trouble that long??

"TCO2 overage does not necessarily imply that a trainer has milkshaked a horse"

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ho...t_274689_7.pdf