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-   -   ATR Hall of Fame Debate: Gio Ponti? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44083)

RolloTomasi 10-13-2011 11:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 810956)
Every one of those horses you just named would have slaughtered GP, except for maybe Sunshine Forever.
Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.

Indian Charlie 10-13-2011 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 810957)
Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.
I may have been fairly biased towards East Coast turf horses back then, but from what I recall, Sunshine Forever wasn't really beating much in the East.

But yeah, I take it back. I think he'd have handled GP.

Revidere 10-14-2011 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 810957)
Sunshine Forever's reputation is tarnished by his 4yo season. He was probably a spent horse. In just a 6 month period as a 3yo, he made 12 starts, most at the top level, most against older horses, winning 8 of those.

Next to Kotashaan, who outside of one race did all his winning at Santa Anita, Sunshine Forever would certainly be the choice in a race run at 12f.

Sunshine Forever got hurt between his 3&4 yr old season. Vetch said he never really tried to run hard after the injury. He was a very game, talented runner.

cmorioles 10-14-2011 10:42 AM
No way in hell is Gio Ponti a Hall of Fame horse.

blackthroatedwind 10-14-2011 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 810984)
No way in hell is Gio Ponti a Hall of Fame horse.
I'm a huge fan of Gio Ponti, and find many inclusions in the Hall of Fame questionable, but I can't imagine how Gio Ponti could be considered a Hall of Fame horse.

Revidere 10-14-2011 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by postpicker (Post 810853)
You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.
If any of those three get in, Bold Forbes deserves to be in. He would have flossed with Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro, IMO.

scat daddy 10-14-2011 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo537 (Post 810774)
Ok.

We can't forget Karelian either.
Or Engine One....

Revidere 10-14-2011 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scat daddy (Post 810995)
Or Engine One....
If you include Engine One, you have to consider Maudlin and Duke Mitcell.

Antitrust32 10-14-2011 01:31 PM
On no planet should Gio Ponti be a hall of fame race horse.

cmorioles 10-14-2011 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 811014)
On no planet should Gio Ponti be a hall of fame race horse.
Maybe if Pluto were still a planet.

Cannon Shell 10-14-2011 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by postpicker (Post 810853)
You ask about Gio Ponti which made me think of another horse. How do you compare Gio Ponti HOF credentials with Better Talk Now credentials. Do either of them belong? Personally, I think they both belong in the HOF. Problem is, the horses with potential to be in the HOF this century have shortened careers and one can say it will cheapen the HOF if they get in. Thinking with your head and not your heart, does Barbaro belong in the HOF. No, but it will not surprise me he gets in. Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are two others with shortened careers that could be put in same category as Barbaro, even though their credentials are better. Both won 2/3 of the Triple Crown but did not race after the Belmont Stakes, so record wise, I'd say both are better than Charismatic and he isnt in the HOF. But with a lack of quality horses becoming eligible in a few years, I can see one or all three getting in.
Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and Barbaro dont deserve to be HoF horses. They simply didnt do enough though now days it seems to be a popularity contest and TC horses get an unbelievable amount of publicity versus a turf horse or even a good older horse.

Gio Ponte has been favored in 17 of 28 starts and lost 11 of those 17 times. I don't know how to interpretate this but his inclusion into the hall of Fame would make Jim Rice's selection look good. Shouldnt Hall of Fame horses win 17 out of 28? I know he has those grade 1 wins but they mostly came against subpar competition.

nebrady 10-14-2011 02:08 PM
He should be hof!
 
Gio was one of the most consistent horses there was and if it wasn't for zenyatta and goldikova he would have won two breeders cup races. Won many grade 1 races and won on turf and synthetic. To me it is not even a question. Gonna miss you gio. hope you go out a winner on breeders cup day!:)

Cannon Shell 10-14-2011 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 810852)
Never won when it counted? Two Shadwells, the Manhattan, two Man O' Wars, the Kilroe, the Arlington Million, those don't 'count'? :zz:
Campaigning till you are 6 and not winning a BC race is an issue.

Antitrust32 10-14-2011 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebrady (Post 811041)
Gio was one of the most consistent horses there was and if it wasn't for zenyatta and goldikova he would have won two breeders cup races. !:)
If it wasnt for the Raiders the Eagles would have a superbowl trophy.

or a better one for you

If it wasnt for the Giants the Patriots would have been 19-0.

FATPIANO 10-14-2011 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo537 (Post 810772)
7 G1 wins

14 G1 turf starts with 7 wins.

4 G1 turf starts at 1 Mile. 3 wins. One 2nd to Goldikova.

SW at ages 2,3,4,5,6.

GSW at ages 3,4,5,6

G1 winner at ages 4,5,6

What other horses have NOT made the HoF with 7 Grade 1 wins?

I'd vote yes.
Just curious 14 G1 turf starts withh 7 wins, How many times did he come in 2nd? Hall of Fame..ABSOLUTELY

Cannon Shell 10-14-2011 06:02 PM
Has Gio Ponti ever beaten a horse that won a year-end championship or has a remote chance of being considered a HoF horse?

I dont know anyone who would call him a great horse. Shouldn't that count for something? I still think it is hard to a specialist to campaign through their 6 year old year, never win a BC race and be considered HoF worthy. While it is commendable that he continued to run that long the HoF used to be about truly great horses.

KirisClown 10-14-2011 06:18 PM
How can Gio Ponti be in the Hall of Fame when a horse like Lure is not?

RolloTomasi 10-14-2011 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 811168)
How can Gio Ponti be in the Hall of Fame when a horse like Lure is not?
One thing in Gio Ponti's meager favor is that he's a multiple Eclipse champion (Lure won no championships), a rare one at that. He's one of only 3 or 4 that have won back-to-back turf titles, and he's the only horse to win the older male Eclipse without having won a race on dirt.

Calzone Lord 10-14-2011 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 811175)
and he's the only horse to win the older male Eclipse without having won a race on dirt.
Kodiak Kowboy and Einstein (I believe) -- where the two other finalists that year.

RolloTomasi 10-14-2011 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 811178)
Kodiak Kowboy and Einstein (I believe) -- where the two other finalists that year.
Unfortunately, Einstein didn't win a race on dirt, either. Something that year must have won at least 2 graded stakes over a route of ground somewhere?

Cannon Shell 10-14-2011 06:59 PM
Sky Classic might have a better resume
Paradise Creek was a better horse

OldDog 11-02-2011 07:07 AM
Quote:
Gio Ponti no second fiddle

Thoroughbred stars are anointed often prematurely at ages 2 and 3 and are too often sent to stud before the depth of their ability if fully realized. Grass horses come into their own with maturity and American breeders are attempting to produce Derby winners not turf champions.

"He raced in the Breeders' Cup as a 2-year-old," said trainer Christophe Clement, the Frenchman who has engineered Gio Ponti's career without interruption since its beginning. "He's 6 now, and he's still competing in the Breeders' Cup. That doesn't happen very often."
http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/stor...-second-fiddle

:{>:

GPK 11-02-2011 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 814428)
The article was going along just fine...until this:

"Though head and withers the best American turf horse in training, perhaps the best since Manila dominated the division in the mid 1980s..."

FATPIANO 11-02-2011 09:16 AM
He will win the mile, with Goldi second, cold exacta

KirisClown 11-02-2011 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPK (Post 814429)
The article was going along just fine...until this:

"Though head and withers the best American turf horse in training, perhaps the best since Manila dominated the division in the mid 1980s..."
Gio Ponti is a nice/consistent horse and it's great he's stayed in training, but the best since Manila?? It's hard to believe that someone in their right mind would actually believe that..

blackthroatedwind 11-02-2011 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 814448)
Gio Ponti is a nice/consistent horse and it's great he's stayed in training, but the best since Manila?? It's hard to believe that someone in their right mind would actually believe that..
I love Gio Ponti. He couldn't have warmed up the likes of Lure or Paradise Creek. Bad opinions foster bad opinions.

Indian Charlie 11-02-2011 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPK (Post 814429)
The article was going along just fine...until this:

"Though head and withers the best American turf horse in training, perhaps the best since Manila dominated the division in the mid 1980s..."
The author even misspells his own last name!

KirisClown 11-02-2011 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 814450)
I love Gio Ponti. He couldn't have warmed up the likes of Lure or Paradise Creek. Bad opinions foster bad opinions.
Agreed, those are the two I immediately had in mind.. The author of that piece has been around long enough to know better, it feels like it's an opinion based on sentiment rather than fact..

Indian Charlie 11-02-2011 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 814450)
I love Gio Ponti. He couldn't have warmed up the likes of Lure or Paradise Creek. Bad opinions foster bad opinions.
Certainly you could think of another 20-30 since Manila that were better than GP.

GPK 11-02-2011 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown (Post 814448)
Gio Ponti is a nice/consistent horse and it's great he's stayed in training, but the best since Manila?? It's hard to believe that someone in their right mind would actually believe that..
That's when I quit reading the article. Like Andy said, bad opinions foster bad opinions. There probably wasn't a bigger fan of English Channel than me (My God, I still have his name on my license plate) but English Channel doesn't belong in the HOF and English Channel would have handled Gio Ponti with no problem.

Clip-Clop 11-02-2011 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPK (Post 814459)
That's when I quit reading the article. Like Andy said, bad opinions foster bad opinions. There probably wasn't a bigger fan of English Channel than me (My God, I still have his name on my license plate) but English Channel doesn't belong in the HOF and English Channel would have handled Gio Ponti with no problem.
Yeah, that.

blackthroatedwind 11-02-2011 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 814455)
Certainly you could think of another 20-30 since Manila that were better than GP.
I don't know about quite that many, as he is good, and has been for a while, and the US turf horses are a pretty weak group, and have been for years. But, I'm sure there are more than a handful.

I think the Hall of Fame has been too liberal over the years with some of their inductees. However, hopefully the internet vote hasn't go so far as to now naming Hall of Fame members. Wasn't electing an undeserving Horse of the Year bad enough?

Calzone Lord 11-02-2011 11:47 AM
You can get 10-to-1 on Gio Ponti right now off-shore.

blackthroatedwind 11-02-2011 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 814480)
You can get 10-to-1 on Gio Ponti right now off-shore.
To make the Hall of Fame?

Calzone Lord 11-02-2011 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 814488)
To make the Hall of Fame?
I'd take that on the basis of the poll results in this thread.

But no, to win the Mile.

OldDog 11-02-2011 12:49 PM
I only attached this to the HOF thread in order to not start a new Gio thread. Other than what I quoted above, what I was taking more to the point of the article was

Quote:
In a setting on the eastern shore of the Atlantic, the Mile would be seen as the best race on the Breeders' Cup menu, a rematch of champions with the potential for high drama. In Louisville, beyond the question to be answered (or not) by Goldikova, the focus will be on the Classic and horses far less accomplished.
A lot of time is spent talking about the durability of the thoroughbred. Here is a horse (not a gelding) competing consistently for years in Grade 1 company, and doing damn well at it, while we spend hours discussing horses who head for the shed with a dozen or fewer starts. It's easy for owners to say, "We love racing." But show me more than a few today who run a horse this long in G1 races. I take my hat off to Shane Ryan, and Christophe Clement, and win or lose Saturday, to Gio Ponti.

Indian Charlie 11-02-2011 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 814500)
I only attached this to the HOF thread in order to not start a new Gio thread. Other than what I quoted above, what I was taking more to the point of the article was



A lot of time is spent talking about the durability of the thoroughbred. Here is a horse (not a gelding) competing consistently for years in Grade 1 company, and doing damn well at it, while we spend hours discussing horses who head for the shed with a dozen or fewer starts. It's easy for owners to say, "We love racing." But show me more than a few today who run a horse this long in G1 races. I take my hat off to Shane Ryan, and Christophe Clement, and win or lose Saturday, to Gio Ponti.
Had he a more fashionable pedigree, and/or won a couple of those BC races he's been in, he'd have been standing stud well before next year.

blackthroatedwind 11-02-2011 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 814500)
I only attached this to the HOF thread in order to not start a new Gio thread. Other than what I quoted above, what I was taking more to the point of the article was



A lot of time is spent talking about the durability of the thoroughbred. Here is a horse (not a gelding) competing consistently for years in Grade 1 company, and doing damn well at it, while we spend hours discussing horses who head for the shed with a dozen or fewer starts. It's easy for owners to say, "We love racing." But show me more than a few today who run a horse this long in G1 races. I take my hat off to Shane Ryan, and Christophe Clement, and win or lose Saturday, to Gio Ponti.
You do understand that he's racing because he has no real value as a sire...right?

Once again, I'm not knocking Gio Ponti. I've been a fan since his debut, and have made plenty of money betting him at different times, but let's at least be honest.

blackthroatedwind 11-02-2011 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 814502)
Had he a more fashionable pedigree, and/or won a couple of those BC races he's been in, he'd have been standing stud well before next year.
I think we both need to remember how lopsided the vote is in this thread. It puts things in a more proper perspective.

Calzone Lord 11-02-2011 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDog (Post 814500)
I only attached this to the HOF thread in order to not start a new Gio thread. Other than what I quoted above, what I was taking more to the point of the article was



A lot of time is spent talking about the durability of the thoroughbred. Here is a horse (not a gelding) competing consistently for years in Grade 1 company, and doing damn well at it, while we spend hours discussing horses who head for the shed with a dozen or fewer starts. It's easy for owners to say, "We love racing." But show me more than a few today who run a horse this long in G1 races. I take my hat off to Shane Ryan, and Christophe Clement, and win or lose Saturday, to Gio Ponti.

He's probably worth more on the track than in the breeding shed. Our turf races are a joke -- and breeders don't fall for late running American turf horses as stallions.

Gio Ponti RNA'd real cheap as a 2yo (I believe at the FT Calder 2yo sale) -- I doubt his offspring will be prime candidates for pinhookers at yearling sales either.


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