I thought GZ could do that too, as well as win the BC Sprint. Just because I thought Smarty was slightly better does not mean that I think GZ was your run of the mill $25k claimer. I thought both were brilliant.

I realize this is a different question than asking who should have won HOY but.... hypothetically, if a healthy and ready Smarty Jones had been entered in the '04 Woodward and BCC who do you really think would have won those races?
My guess is the same horse that won them in real life.

Gary Stevens calling a horse one of the greatest ever... thats never happened before.

I'd probably lean towards a split. The Woodward wasn't a really fast race. If I remember correctly, it was only given a 114 Beyer and that's a figure that the 3yo Smarty had already gone past. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Smarty could have improved as the year went on and his trainer had been able to train him the way he wanted to and picked out the races he wanted to instead of having to be forced into a schedule by the TC series. The weight break would have been nice too.

Who cares? Stevens called Rock Hard Ten the best horse he ever rode. His opinion is worthless.

It was unquestionably a great performance. However, it was only a slightly better performance than the Preakness wins turned in by Bernardini and Funny Cide.

Smith said Zenyatta was better than Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away, and all of the other males he rode. His opinion is worthless. And Smarty Jones wasn't exactly another Secretariat either.

If he repeated that performance over and over, yes. He didn't.


I guess if he really believed that Rock Hard Ten was better than horses like Silver Charm and Gentleman....


Yes, both are chestnuts. Very good, Kent.


"the way he looks right now, he's got an edge on all of them" ... yeah, because they've all been out of training for about 25 years or more.

I don't agree that Smarty Jones was as tactical as Frankel is making him out to sound. You certainly could not get away with taking him back the way you always could with a Spectacular Bid.



Smarty Jones could rate the same way a Holy Bull type of horse could rate. That's very different from taking back and still being able to run huge like Spectacular Bid could. Spectacular Bid won a ruthlessly fast KY Derby from 10 lengths off the early pace. When Spectacular Bid was defeated by a year older and fresher Affirmed at 12 furlongs - he managed to rate kindly while taken back behind fractions of 25 and 49 - and still ran a 127 Beyer in defeat.


Great. Try comparing them on the basis of body of work on the racetrack. It's like trying to compare Brandon Marshall to Jerry Rice.

Smarty Jones compares more favorably with Spend A Buck. It seems odd to me that Frankel compared him to the Bid since he trained the only older male who has come remotely close to comparison in 30 years.

That quote of Frankel's was just days after his Preakness win. It's very easy for a lot of people to get swept up in the excitement of a horse with an undefeated record coming off of such a superb recent performance. I would suspect he was optimistic the horse would hold that form in future races by the "how he looks now" comment.

Also, I believe Ghostzapper had yet to even attempt a route race at the time of that quote. Ghostzapper had all very impressive and super fast races from the Vosburgh of his 3yo season on - but even comparing him and SB as just older males - he didn't travel as much and campaign as hard.

I forgot that GZ had not yet completed his 4yo season at that time.

The thing is that the question wasn't what made me think that Smarty was as good or better than Bid or Secretariat but what made me think he was more talented than GZ. As I said when I posted those things, I wasn't using them as proof that he was but merely as examples of how there were quite a few people that were putting him in the same sentences with all-time greats so maybe it wasn't too far out in left field to think he was pretty damn good.

Undefeated horses have a mystique about them.

And when one of them wins a race with a genuinely great performance - it's very easy to get swept up in the excitement of it and the praise can get out of control.

A lot of flowery stuff was certainly also said about a horse like Candy Ride after his Pacific Classic win - or Discreet Cat after his Cigar Mile.

Ghostzapper was certainly the best older horse of the last 10 years. Smarty Jones is in the discussion (with horses like Tiznow, Point Given, Bernardini, and maybe Curlin) as best 3yo over that time frame.

SJ VS GZ is a classic 3yo vs older comparison - and if they met on the track - the older Ghostzapper would almost certainly win that match-up no matter how it plays out from a scenerio standpoint.

You know, and I know you know, that Candy Ride at his best would have beaten GZ at his best, going 10f on dirt. Turf most likely as well.

Tiznow was a three year old eleven years ago.

4yo GZ would have whooped on SJ, that much is for sure.

You may be right that GZ would have beaten Smarty. I think it would have been a tight race though. I'd also take Candy Ride over GZ.

I stand corrected.

:)

The difference between Ghostzapper and Candy Ride is Candy Ride had just one race like that - Ghostzapper had several.

Twirling Candy can't win at 10 F. I'd hope someone different emerges.

Candy Ride had three really good races here, including easily handling a grade one turf winner on the grass.

His dirt win over Primerica and Bonus Pay Day in an allowance race? The American Handicap was a GII and was a strong race. However, to say that either of his prior wins compared to his Pacific Classic is not accurate. It was the PC that has made him an internet sensation for the last 8 years.

His Pacific Classic was along the same lines as Ghostzapper's Iselin, BC Classic, and Met Mile. That's why Doug said Candy Ride had one and Ghostzapper had multiple sensational performances and I think he's absolutely right.

I don't believe I put the other two on a par with the Pacific Classic. I just thought it wasn't fair to say he had one good one either. I also thought that his single best performance was the best of anyone else's single best performance in at least the last decade.

I also thought GZs Vosburgh was the performance that wowed me the most. I think its all not worth arguing though. Both were exceptional horses and I have no proof to dispute anyone that believes GZ was better because he just may have been. Neither of them was Lammtarra though lol.

I think I recall seeing an interview with Tom Durkin where he said he went and measured 31 lengths the day before Smarty's Belmont just in case... in hindsight that is about as foolish of statement/action as one could make, but at the time, I think a lot of people thought (or hoped) that Smarty could put on a show of the nature of Secretariat's Belmont...

wow.

i didn't know anyone at that time that thought of SJ as being some sort of superstar.

You must not have lived within 500 miles of Philadelphia for five weeks in 2004 then.

That Belmont crowd was pretty insane.

They wanted to tar and feather Jerry Bailey because he opted to try and put a little bit of early pressure on Smarty Jones with Eddington of all horses.

I suppose Bailey must have re-watched the film of Touch Gold's Belmont win where McCarron had challenged Silver Charm early - backed off right away - and came again to wear him down in the stretch. Bailey should have known that what works with a tactically gifted horse like Touch Gold would not work with a grinding plodder like Eddington ... but still, the Smarty Jones fans acted as if Bailey pulled out a crow bar and went Tonya Harding on Smarty Jones.

The real thing that hurt SJ and helped Birdstone in that race - was the insanely pre-mature inside move Rock Hard Ten made. SJ got a very serious mid-race challenge from a fairly good horse. Friggen Bailey getting Eddington to breath on SJ for a few seconds was so overblown.

Indian Charlie, are you serious? You didn't know ANYONE that thought of him as a superstar? That Belmont drew over 120k.

that 120k fig is dubious at best

Trivia....

who was the morning line favorite in the Kentucky Derby the year Smarty Jones won it?

It was PACKED that day Freddy.

Was it Tapit? Had to have been him or Lion Heart if not Smarty Jones.

Seriously? I'd say 120k was pretty accurate.

The Cliff's Edge?

Correct.

Yep, it was The Cliff's Edge. I forgot how much Battaglia loves Kentucky racing.

Busiest day in the history of Erie's OTB as well. They gave out free $2 win bets on Smarty Jones to everyone who walked in and had signs on Peach street saying "bet on Pennsylvania bred Smarty Jones right here" with arrows pointing to the OTB.

It was one of those super sized OTB's with three huge-ass rooms and it was hard to move around that day. Stupidest promotion to ever work. That place was like a morgue for the Charismatic Belmont.

The Cliff's Edge

the Cliff's Edge?

I believe he also had Pulpit the ML favorite the year of SC, Free House, and Captain Bodgit.

120,139 according to the NYRA Media Guide.

lol. you certainly were not there. where'd you pull that comment from?

Spoken like someone who wasn't there.

I'm not sure how many of that 120k I personally knew. Probably not many, and of those, I doubt any of them thought of him in the same way they'd think of a Secretariat type.