Devil May Care had a hepatitis caused by lymphosaroma, and Uncle Mo has a cholangiohepatitis secondary to intestinal infection. Two very different things, these horses had very different presentations reported, the only commonality with both was/is "the liver" was involved.

There are a hundred things that can cause inflammation in the liver ("hepatitis"). It's a description of an organ system condition, not a disease.

BTW, a "steroid hepatopathy" secondary to exogenous steroid use doesn't really present like either of the above two things, and is easy to diagnose, even if the owner was lying to you about giving steroids.

You're using hindsight with respect to Devil May Care. She wasn't diagnosed with lymposarcoma until just prior to being euthanized.

What was so "very different" about the abnormalities displayed between the two horses?

Both were off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly.

Wasn't it the other way around? At least, that's what was reported.

"Off-feed, losing weight, and performing poorly" can presage hundreds of medical problems, from pneumonia to a tooth abcess.

DMC had a different liver enzyme profile, and didn't respond well to treatment from day one. That's often pathognomonic for lymphosarcoma, which yes, can be difficult to diagnose even with biopsy/imaging until very late in the disease course, especially when the animal is put on glucocorticoids to help treat the presenting clinical symptoms (as that dampens down many markers of the clinical presentation of lymphosarcoma, and extends life)

UM responded well from day one, with a different blood profile, and a small relapse with a subacute cholangiohepatis isn't an uncommon sequela to a GI tract infection.

The different hepatic conditions present clearly differently upon a good diagnostic workup: liver/lymph biopsy, diagnostic imaging (ultrasound), bloodwork, response to different treatments, etc.

What was relayed publicly about both horses was entirely consistent with the subsequent individual conditions announced, and inconsistent with much of the casual speculation.

That's my opinion. Others may feel free to continue to mock it.

Good luck to Uncle Mo, I hope he gets back to racing. Training for breeding season doesn't start until December.

Uncle Mo to Begin Light Training Next Week

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...eek?source=rss

Please refrain from making believe you understand this stuff..Dr Riot is a Vet not some internet nobody who makes bad calls about horses..lol

Unfortunately you are making your case based on information which you assume is accurate and not engineered I have no reason to believe anything about any of the horses is indeed factual

From today: an additional (different than posted above already) BloodHorse blog, additional pictures, and video of Uncle Mo at Winstar Farm.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/tripl...t-winstar.aspx

looks pretty happy, and "dapples" too.

Was that meant to strengthen or weaken your case?

My opinion was given yesterday, and I'll leave it to stand on it's own merits.

Then why are you trying to back it up?

What strikes me as very strange is that they said Uncle Mo is off all medications. Maybe Dr. Riot, whom I'm very impressed by her insight and intelligence, can explain why a horse with Cholangiohepatitis would not be on some protocol that included antibiotics, more specifically Trental, and vitamin E for a very extended period of time. This innocent comment made by the Winstar folks leads me to believe the whole story is a bunch of bullshit.

So you do have access to the bloodwork on both horses. I presumed that you were merely going off the same DRF and Blood-Horse reports that everyone else was. As no real specific details were given in those related to the diagnostic work, you can see how, superficially, both cases seemed to progress in near parallel fashion (not that Uncle Mo's is over just yet).

Having personally reviewed the pertinent information collected from all the workup done, you no doubt are in a better position to distinguish between the two horses' respective illnesses.

You could call Dr. Byars and question him directly about his medical treatment decisions.

I would speculate, based upon the usual treatment of equine cholangiohepatitis secondary to gastrointestinal infection, that:

Was on antibiotics. Done and finished.

You are mistaken. Trental is not an antibiotic. Why should a horse be on pentoxifylline for arterial vascular concerns when he's been getting regular hyperbaric oxygen treatments?

While Vitamin E is a potent anti-inflammatory and useful in animals with gall bladders that release bile acids in response to big meals involving fat with a bolus release of bile acids, horses physiology is different (no gall bladder), and all fats will be restricted to some extent to help prevent future inflammation of the bile ducts.

JMHO.

Wow. How dare I offer an opinion on this subject, huh? Especially one that differs from the popular conspiracy theories? Especially one that turns out the next day to be, so far, 100% accurate?

For those that missed it yesterday, here is my opinion again. And yes, I'll let my statements stand on their own merits.

Those of you who think differently, instead of attacking me, might try being brave and stating your own opinions, and letting your own opinions of the horse stand up to public scrutiny over time, too. Be brave, go for it <g>

"Be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity."

Yup. I do.

You? You do anything more than join threads to poke at other posters? The troll act is very old.

Are you sure about this, Riot? Supposedly Breitbart agrees with your diagnosis.

Let's see ... my opinion has already been judged by Blackthroatedwind, DaHoss, Coach Pants, FreddyMo, Steve ... we still need to hear from the rest of the Derby Trail regulars, who can properly put me in my place for not buying the "smart" conspiracy theories.

Rest of you guys? C'mon, time to pile on! :D

Genuine Risk, good thing you started this thread, and asked about cholangiohepatitis in Uncle Mo <g>

do you believe the conspiracy theory that Uncle Mo had bone chips removed?

I'm sorry. I'm not a vet. I thought Trental was an antibiotic. I was just looking at my vet bills from a horse that had the same condition as Uncle Mo. She was attended to by Dr. Nathan Slovis, who I believe was a protege of Dr. Byers. My horse was on this course of treament for many many months. I have a hard time believing Uncle Mo would be all better after a few hyperbaric treamnebts and a few doses of antibiotics.

My non-vet opionion, based on having a very good horse of my own go through the same thing, is that Uncle Mo has absolutely no shot of ever making the races again. If he does, he didn't have Cholangiohepatitus treated with meds for only a few weeks.

Dr. Slovis is is a wonderful guy and an outstanding doctor. There are different degrees of cholangiohepatitis - that is just a word describing what is inflammed - and many different causes.

Because one horse isn't treated exactly like another horse is no reason to doubt the diagnosis. Your horse may have had a sterile inflammation that was treated symptomatically and responded well after months. There may also have been a degree of liver loss via fibrosis. Uncle Mo had infection. If your horse didn't get antibiotics, there wasn't an (antibiotic-responsive) infectious cause. Was a definitive cause ever established in your horse?

I don't think about it :D I remember seeing the pictures of the small shaved area.

I knew a chick like that who used to work at TCBY...ate too much of the product or just generally unhappy, I could never tell.

She did get antibiotics and no cause was ever established as I imagine its almost impossible to find one.

I find it very strange that you can make these definitive statements about Mo's condition unless you yourself is the one treating the horse.

You do seem like someone who does not lack in confidence.

Was she ever able to get back in work with you?

My opinions from a professional medical point of view, is that the public statements are entirely consistent with the normal and usual medical courses of diagnosis and treatment for both horses regarding the diseases they've stated. There is nothing "fishy" or inconsistent in the least about any of the claims or treatments made.

Mine is obviously not a popular opinion.

And no, I do not lack in confidence regarding my knowledge of the diagnosis, treatment and outcomes of these diseases. I do it professionally all day long. You have your opinion based upon your personal experience with your mare, I have mine based upon my personal professional experience and knowledge of the veterinarians involved.

Mo obviously needs a colon cleanse and 3-day fast. Then add some chlorella and spirulina to his feed.

This will work because I read a lot on alternative medicine websites.

Where are you currently employed?

Of course there is something fishy with the statements they made. If you believe for one second Uncle Mo is not on any medications, then you should have your veterninary licence revoked immediately.

Of course, you know best that Dr. Byars is lying publicly.

:wf

Not as a public handicapper for NYRA.

Sorry, Andy. No apology to the DeeTee regulars for daring to not subscribe to the predominant conspiracy theories about Uncle Mo and Pletcher. Nor for using my professional knowledge and experience as a veterinarian to influence my thinking or assessment, nor for saying my opinion publicly on Derby Trail.

He said Uncle Mo is not on medications. So did Elliot Walden. They both lied or should I say didn't tell the truth. Why, I have no idea. But if they would lie about that then we can't really believe a word they say about anything related the condition of poor Uncle Mo. Can we??

That's quite a dodge.

I asked a simple question. I will try again....where are you working? Since you said you make these kinds of diagnoses daily, this is a fair question. What thoroughbreds are you currently diagnosing daily?

I have no conspiracy theories on this subject and have stated none here. I do find your arrogant know-it-all attitude amusing. But, that doesn't mean I have some theory on Uncle Mo. I don't, nor have I given one, or even hinted at it.

She works for Mike Repole.

Hold on...you had a very good horse in this century..Someone call Joe Drape!

It's not a dodge. Your request to put my CV on an internet list is laughable and absurd.

Good for you! I find your arrogance quite amusing, too ;) Thus we are both "amused" :D

I think everyone here just got the answer.