is Formal Gold still alive?

I'd say Skip Away, but since he's dead... what about Gold?

Cigar is the horse with the best career that is still alive.

Horse with the most talent that is still alive... I'll get crucified for saying this.. Unbridled's Song :)

Are you kidding? UBS was freakin amazing.

That's not the point. Point is that Roses in May and horses of his ilk would always be a thorn in Ghostzapper's side, at least when it came to classic distances.

Fortunately, Frankel avoided running him in such races but twice in top company.

Didn't say that at all. Miraja brought up the hypothetical Cigar-Ghostzapper matchup that you are so loathe to bother yourself with. I, on the other hand, don't mind wasting "hours" and "pages" on such a debate, so I responded.

I'm still not sure why you involved yourself with it if your not interested in that sort of discussion.

no I was not kidding about UBS being the most talented of the alive horses today! If #1) he would have had an owner who was not a waste of plasma and #2) been a sound horse... who knows what could have been! Zito still says he's the most talented horse he trained.. and I think Zito only had him for one 7 furlong race.

Nice job cherry-picking that part of my post. It was an add-on to my original point about Ghostzapper's brilliance. The main point is that had Ghostzapper not drawn the rail, I'm almost positive the Frankel/Ramsey exchange never would've happened (if it happened at all).

Because I thought it was pretty funny that Princess Doreen trashed miraja for using 'hypotheticals', then used one of her own in the very next sentence doubting whether Ghostzapper could've run Cigar's schedule. Hope that satisfies you.

Oh...so it's OK for you to cherry-pick, but not others.

You didn't make much of a defense for the allegedly pace-invulnerable Ghostzapper's near upset in the 2004 Woodward.

Not really. I have nothing to do with Princess Doreen's posts.

You should have given her the "hypotheticals are a waste of my precious time" lecture, not me.

I had no idea how clueless so many of you are. Everyone knows this title belongs to Peppers Pride. She was undefeated!!! DUHHHH

English Channel is going to be devistated when he hears about this.

It's ok....he knows how special he is to me. I tell him every week in the letter I write him and send to Lanes End:o

Saint Liam was an elite handicap horse and he basically took Ghostzapper to the outer rail in the stretch. Ghostzapper still won and they weren't exactly crawling home. That hardly proves anything about Ghostzapper's supposed tactical failures.

Ghostzapper was never keen or rank early in any of his route races. He let Saint Liam go early in the Woodward and he tracked Presidentialaffair in the Iselin. He took the lead in the Classic because he drew the rail. He proved over and over when sprinting that as long as you kept him outside of horses, he had no problem waiting for his cue. Suggesting he couldn't rate against top flight speed horses is silly.

I know what you meant. I was agreeing with you.

IC is the best though :)

I agree with you. But how about if they ran a race every month for a year? How many would Cigar have won? At least 6, IMO. GZ would have crashed after 4-5.

Durability and consistency are also elements of greatness.

--Dunbar

Oops, I should have read further. I would have seen that you made the same point 6 hrs ago that I just made.

--Dunbar

Disagreeing is trashing? I didn't trash anyone, and I'm quite sure Miraja can defend her opinion. I personally find it useless to discuss hypotheticals - they can't be proven. Tearing down one horse's accomplishments to prop up another denigrates them both. I posted a hypothetical in response to Miraja's which prompts another hypothetical, and so on, and so on. It gets ridiculous after awhile.

But why? What I appreciated about Ghostzapper more than anything else besides his utter brilliance was his versatility. He could literally run at any pace from any part of the track. What evidence is there that he was vulnerable to pace at ANY distance?

Ive run into Mike Smith a few times and most notably after the BC this year. I don't know him but he was nice enough to stop and take a picture and chat even after that tough loss. I asked him who his best mount was. I even said "holy bull?"

He said "Zenyatta, in all ways Zenyatta".

It could have been the libations or his emotions speaking a few hours after a tough loss but I swear that is what the man said and there were no reporters or boom mics around.

I know that this is hearsay and I will get my deserved thrashing for posting this. Either way, I took him at his word and if that is the case, I don't think its such a joke that she is mentioned.

If we are judging strictly on what we individually perceive as "quality" in a racehorse, then I think GZ or Cigar are both worthy and I think most would agree that an argument could be made.

If greatness is measured solely in terms of the imprint left on the sport, I think Zenyatta is unquestionably the greatest living racehorse. Thirty years from now, will we talking more about her or Cigar?

Again, it depends on how one defines "greatness".

for the sake of integrity, i'm hoping people talk more about cigar than zenyatta 30 years from now. since most of her fans aren't going to attend more races since she's retired, i'd imagine talk of her will wither and die in future years. but racing die hards won't forget cigar. nor should they.


i'd have to think holy bull would be the greatest living. cigar close behind.

He set the pace in one of three route races and there's an anecdote about Frankel asking Ramsey not to send Roses in May early in the Classic. That's enough evidence for some that Ghostzapper was an intractable speedball who'd get burned up by the speed horses of Cigar's day.

No offense, but I'd rather pull my toenails out one by one than have another Zenyatta discussion. However, Smith also said she was the best horse ever. He might be a bit biased and was totally (understandable) caught up in the Zenyattatardness.

I only suggested he was vulnerable at classic distances.

As he started just 3 times at 9f or more (and even then only twice around 2 turns), the evidence is certainly scant.

But in the 2004 Woodward, where he was under pressure through fast fractions, Ghostzapper was life and death to edge an, up to that point, unheralded St. Liam.

In 3 of Ghostzapper's last 4 starts, he earned a Beyer speed figure of 122 or more. The only exception was the Woodward, where he recorded at 114.

Hell hath no fury like a miffed self-styled martyr scorned.

Doesn't their one matchup against each other refute that argument a bit?

Don't you get it? The race was fixed so that Roses in May wouldn't pressure Ghostzapper early. Otherwise he totally would've run GZ into the ground.

Like all hypotheticals - including the one I brought up - there's no way to know for sure. Obviously Cigar deserves a lot of credit for the sheer number of big races he won....something Ghostzapper didn't come close to equalling.

While you are correct in saying that those factors are also "elements of greatness," I think versatility matters some too. There just aren't a lot of horses that I can think of in recent memory (including Cigar) who had the ability to run absolutely brilliant sprints like GZ did in the Vosburgh and the Tom Fool and then come back and easily defeat really good route horses like Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect going 10f.

In the iselin, he rated kindly off of 22/45/109 going two turns against a horse that was lone speed on a sloppy track that is known to favor speed. Doesn't that refute your theory?

I think beating a horse of Saint Liam's caliber (no matter the margin) is a point in GZ's favor.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.....and the sex change.

The point you made earlier in the thread is really the key.
Different people are going to define "greatness" differently.

If people want to call Cigar the greatest alive today....fine. I think they can make a good argument for that. Personally I would go with Ghostzapper, but for people who favor accomplishments far above brilliance, the choice of Cigar makes sense. That doesn't bother me.

The only thing that bothers me is when certain people say things on this thread like there is "absolutely, positively, no question" Cigar is the best. Umm....yeah there is.

Not if you lend any credence to the story that Bobby Frankel persuaded the Roses In May team to avoid a speed duel between the two, turning the Classic into basically a merry-go-round race.

I wouldn't call Presidentialaffair or Zoffinger or Private Lap top class rivals.

Ghostzapper would have no business losing that race under any circumstances.

I disagree with regards to the margin of victory. I dominant horse that typically wins his races by open lengths suddenly winning by a mere neck suggests that he might have been, among other possibilities, compromised by race dynamics.

Why would they have needed persuading on that matter? Did the connections think that Roses in May would have somehow benefitted from such a battle before Frankel talked them out of it? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems pretty obvious that those two battling it out on the front end would most likely have only benefitted Pleasantly Perfect and/or Birdstone.

which was what i understood was the gist of the conversation all along. supposedly ramsey was told that if he tried to duel gz, neither would win. if he didn't, one of them would.. essentially what happened. now, whether ramsey had to have that explained to him or not-well, who knows?!?!

So let's say (just for the sake of argument) that you're right and he was "compromised by race dynamics" that day.

Isn't the fact that he ran a 114 BSF and defeated an excellent horse while being so compromised a testament to GZ's greatness?

That's true, however, Ghostzapper and Roses In May were not entry mates, either. Roses In May for all intents and purposes was a confirmed front runner. If the Whitney and Woodward were any indication, both horses could have conceivably gone a lot faster in a more competitively run race.

Ghostzapper drew the rail, and 99.9% of the time would have most likely suffered for it, but Frankel was able to secure a free pass.

You're letting the words that jilted poster keeps putting in my mouth get in the way.

I never said Ghostzapper wasn't great. I merely said, at classic distances, he'd be vulnerable in heavy pace scenarios. Thus, I could see a horse like Cigar getting the better of him, at least some of the time.

Not completely outlandish, IMO.

Ghostzapper ran a 128 under those conditions in the iselin. If you want to use the 114 beyer as support, can't I use the 128 to contradict regardless of opposition?

He ran his lifetime best beyer around two turns against a speedball. Doesn't this refute your theory?

But I am regarding the opposition, else I would probably agree with you.

Ghostzapper had plenty of speed himself. I would suggest that a speed-favoring track (Monmouth), a generally speed-favoring track condition (sloppy), and a small field (4 horses) of undeniably inferior horses were ideal conditions for any Grade 1 calibur monster to run a lifetime top Beyer.

Maybe if GZ had done enough up to that point to warrant an assignment of 131 lbs in the Iselin (the way Skip Away was in '98), then the matter of opposition wouldn't be as relevant.

Of course, he never would have run with that kind of weight assignment, either, so long as Frankel was training him.

I thought your contention was that he was susceptible to pace. If your point is that a horse like Kentucky roses in may would give gz a battle, I agree but it had little to do with distance or running style. Krim was just a darn nice horse. So was st liam for that matter.

GZ ran two races around two turns. One he stalked and one he wired. I can't draw any conclusions about vulnerability from either of those two races especially considering he beyered 128 and 124 respectively. What would make you think he couldn't have sat mid pack or even closed?

Not exactly.
Roses in May was a darn nice horse.
Krim was....umm....something else.