Seems like one could simply write about the horses they think are champs.Why write negative stuff about Grade One- Winning 3 year olds(Jazil,Brother Derek,and WLA.)

If a horse carries a reputation that isn't near as good as his true ability - then isn't that classified as somewhat of a fraudulant or misleading notion to non-horse racing experts?

Food for thought.....

The best ever are horses like Funny Cide and Giacomo who capture so much national attention when they win the Derby and...well...I won't get into the rest but you know the story.....:D

True....negativity is not great to report, but this runs deep because i knew this horse wasn't legitimate all along when EVERYBODY in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses over his withers before he even ran in the Derby (at least in the Spring they were)...

I'm pretty close to this situation knowing some of the connections, and watching him race and train I just knew he was "just a horse" - so to speak.....

Didn't mean to spread too much negativity...God knows we indeed do have more negativity in this game than any other game in the world....

Lot of racehorses born each year.Just my opinion,but I think Grade One Winners aren't respected enough.One could own/breed horses for a long time without coming up with one like these that have been mentioned here.I kid around with Gander about claimers like All Hail Stormy etc.,but at some point,I think horses should be respected for their big wins(like the Grade One stakes.)I know many of us have to try to beat them,but it is hard for me to see a Grade One Winner as a fraud.Those two (G1 WINNER,and Fraud) don't seem to belong together.

Oh please!
Nothing like a little exageration and chest thumping about how you alone knew that BD was a fraud and EVERYBODY in the racing world was duped. Joel you act as if this horse was 1-10 odds in the derby. What was he? 7-8 to one? To say that everyone in the racing world was ready to lay the Roses oner his withers, shouldn't he at have been the favorite in the derby?

Hell, i'm not close to the connections like you and i had very big doubts about his derby prospects, as did many others. I'd refer to this type of situation as discovering an underlay, not as a fraud and it does not mean that the horse is not legitimate.

(Just noticed i used three "nots" in that last sentence. Well you know what i mean!)

If we're to believe this statement, then how do you explain the premise of this thread you started?

Namely that Brother Derek is a fraud, and that you never liked him.

How in gods name is that not negative?

Well guys, looks as if "little Lord Fauntleroy" is mad beacuse he can't fool anyone into believing he actually knows what hes talking about anymore.
Little Lord and daddy will never own a grade one winner like Wonder Lady Anne L. And Little Lord Fauntleroy will forever have his nosed pressed up against the big shot window, slobbering over shiekhs an singing their praises, always hoping someday that he could actually accomplish something within the game, instead of just talking about it. But I think the odds of that are indeed slim.
Fraud is what I would label someone who can't ever handicap a race or predict a winner BEFORE it occurs. Fraud is someone who bashes guys like pletcher while acting indignant. A fraud a is a guy who bashes grade one winning horses while having never actually accomplished anything within the game whatsoever.
Someone wake me up when this "horse racing analyst" actually accomplishes something within the game, like Brother Derek's connections have.

By the way, anyone who is actually IN THIS GAME, knows that you never bash another horse or connections who has actually accomplished anything in this game. Its so very hard to ever get a grade one win, and they can't take em away.
In the Gold may have fallen off form this year, shes in a money allowance today. But last year she was grade one placed in some nice races and then won the Grade One Gazelle. Shes worth millions as a broodmare(going rate right now, rock bottom appraisal on grade one winning mares is 2.5 mill) and gave her owner breeder Live Oak a huge thrill.
There isn't any difference. Shes not what she was, but you can't take away what shes accomplished. Of coure Little Lord doesn't know anything about accomplishment, only flapping his gums. And thats what he will forever be doing, writing about the accomplishemnts of other people, after the race is over with.
Way to disprespect the owner and trainer of a grade one winner Joel, especially since the ****ing guys trains froom a wheelchair. You have zero class, zilch, none at this time.

I don't have time to address this properly, but gosh, I hope the above pair of ridiculous missives is one of your 'tongue-in-cheekers' given your own "bashing" of "somone(s) who have accomplished something" in this game... on a regular, ongoing and unending basis.

Rarely has the pot called the kettle blacker...

See, ArlJim? I was right about Lava Man and Invasor. And you were right that Bernardini is somehow exempt from the "fraud" label, regardless of whether he gets beaten next time out. I loved this CR line, comparing Bernardini to Brother Derek:

"Big difference here...Brother Derek could not warm up Bernardini and I knew that back in May...you can tell the goods and the 'frauds' when you see them...."

It reminds me of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's remark on defining pornography: "I know it when I see it." That may be the most laughed about Supreme Court quote in history, but CR is trying to outdo him. He can tell "fraudness" when he sees it.

--Dunbar

Well, sometimes the kettle indeed has a couple extra coats on it as well as a seemingly continuous self-applying shellac function.

And, one does reap what one sows.

Horses are not "frauds." They may disappoint, not run well, be hurt or may be declining. However, anyone who puts themselves out as an "expert" certainly knows better than to apply such a curious cognomen such as "fraud" to an animal.

I wish everyone well, but what happens a year later when a chance to interview the owner and trainer of a fraudulent horse arises? What happens when one gets sent to interview Dutrow after a big win?

I suppose if you put yourself out as an "connected insider," a "professional analyst," and a "industry compensated professional," it should come as no surprise that when you call horses frauds, claim several months later to have earned five figures plus on a race or question the integrity of top trainers, you will be criticized.

Thank you for posting that.

--Dunbar

Steve he is a fraud. A total and complete fraud. Anytime you wanna have a "knowledge off" between he and I, just let me know.
I have bashed trainers, and always will, but not the horses they train.

You people are ridiculous. He never attacked anyone or even the horse. He was just saying the horse is overrated, or a fraud.

It is true, Brother Derek is overrated. He has done nothing except beat mediocre horses. Those two horses he beat over and over are also frauds.

The California horses were way overhyped.


For the record, I don't know Cunningham, but he made the post of the year on this site. He was the one who said the sheikhs would take over racing in america this year, and he was 100% correct. They own american racing.

I do love the hypocrisy from Oracle saying he would never bash anyone in the game and then bashing Cunningham. Only an idiot can't see the hypocrisy there.

I don't see anyone bashing Oracle for his ridiculous predictions on Flower Alley or his ridiculous comments about the top rider in the country G. Gomez or his ridiculous comments about Songster and Albertrani. Those were much more ridiculous than calling a horse a fraud.

The fact is Cunningham is correct and Oracle was wrong on all of the above mentioned.

Lava Man a fraud? I cant wait for the BC, I really cant.
SO many on here knock this horse for staying home and just making money, throwing one overhyped east coast handicap horse out there after another.
Sun King cant get up yet again, surprise surprise. Flower Alley all done. Looks like its down to Invasor and Bernardinin.
Lava Man, a fraud? LOL! If hes a fraud what are the horses that ran in the Woodward yesterday?

the whole point is that he doesn't want to have to mediate a 'knowledge off' between the two of you--if you can't get along why not ignore each other--esp. when both of you have much to add to the site when you are not hurling insults @ each other.
Steve is not running a pre-school he's running a website.

Nostra,
Flower Alley is not a fraud, and you will note that after his last race I completely backed off of backing him as a possible HOY.
The explanation I received after his loss was pretty much confirmed yesterday.
I was told by someone who I trust that he had no injury, that he simply had lost his mental desire to put out or perform.
It happens more often than you think, most often with fillies or mares. Lady's Secret even had this occur at the end of her career, bolting on a turn in an allowance type race and refusing to run. Storm Flag Flying was another, after her incedible BC performance she had the potential to become one of the all the time greats in many people's minds(myself included). When she returned at age three they just couldnt get her to really try. She did win a grade one up here at age 4, accomplished after stalking one of the most bizzare speed duels in history and barely getting up in a last 1/4 in :27(or thereabouts).
We don't know the story with Brother Derek yet. Was he injured? Did something go awry? Or is he just another on a long list of three year olds who were mentally or physically fried(or both) because of the grueling triple crown route?
He was never my favorite horse. I always said I admired his talent but that I thought he had no shot in the Derby. I didn't jump on this thread to jump ugly on Joel just because he started it. Had anyone else started it I would have said the same thing to them. I bash trainers all the time, probably always will. But I tend to appreciate the accomplishments of animals who win a grade one race. Its so hard you just can't believe it. Lansdon told me while he was up here, that its quite conceivable(and likely) that although he is young, that he may never have another grade one winner. He said just getting to a grade one is so very hard. One of the things I like about him is his sense of honesty. he told his wife last year while standing in the winner's circle at the Champgane to enjoy this, because it won't happen again(winning two grade ones in a row with the same horse).
If the thread title had been "Brother Derek not as good as thought earlier", or Hendriks did a lousy job with the horse for this race, I would probably have agreed. But fraud is an awful harsh word for a horse who accomplished and did as much as he did this year. I defended Lawyer Ron the same way earlier this year, even though I thought he had zero shot in the Derby. You have to appreciate a horse who goes out there and does the things that he did.

So 15 guys on this thread bash Joel's thread and I'm the only one whos gotta bear the brunt of it? hell i wasn't even the first one to jump on him, and many on here bashed him harder than I did. It wasn't personal(even though I'm sure everyone thinks it was), if gander had started the thread I woulda jumped on him as well. Gander is a friend of mine for 20 years and he starts threads like this often in the past, and you can see I was often the first one to jump on him and say thats out of line.

it goes beyond just this thread--you and I both know that....

No, you don't know that, and its arrogant to think that you do.
Yes, Joel and I get in each others faces a lot on here. But like the other night when I saw a thread title and jumped on DaHoss(who I later apologized to) I didn't even note the author and leaped into a response.
I did the same thing here, whether you think so or not.
Pais, gander starts threads like this all the time, you can ask him, and I have been much rougher on him. And thats a guy I have known and been friends with for over 20 years. Don't have too many friends in this world that I have known longer than gander. But when he starts one of his negativity threads I'm the first one to jump up and down and scream thats stupid.
Joel then turned it personal by bashing a grade one winner I bought. Thats fine. When he is associated with a grade one winner, he will find that I won't bash the horse, regardless of what I think of him.
You, working with horses, ought to appreciate how tough it is for any horse to win a grade one. How many did you take care of, or feed, or brush, before you touched the great henny Hughes? My guess is one HELL of a lot of them.
Brother Derek is a grade one winner(duel) and showed a lot of talent and desire and speed earlier this year. he may not be as good as he was advertised or that the hype spouted about him deserved, he may now be past his prime already, but calling him a fraud off one layoff race that we don't know the details of is certainly foolish in my opinion.

Oracle is right, he has jumped on many of my posts, some for good reasons and maybe some for just his own opinions which I strongly disagree with. But an hour later when we see each other the last thing we do is argue about what was said on the internet.

I have been very guilty for letting my personal bets affect what I have written on here about certain horses (not lately though).

If you can find a fault with Lava Man, you can find a fault with everything. Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Albert Pujols, Derek Jeter, etc.

I didn't mean you and joel I meant steve's frustration....

I don't think it is appropriate to bash horses for any reason because they are never the one's responsible for the hype surrounding them (brother Derek) nor are they responsible when they running out of their ability level (ex. Funny Cide)--Yup I groomed a buch of nags in addition to Henny...
But I also don't really think it's useful to bash a trainer when his horse throws a bad race--pre-race comments are not always true, but on the other hand a horse can fool his trainer too and then the trainer is left with egg on his face...
Last week a very famous trainer said to me...'I don't understand it I've got all the favorites and can't win a f*cking race' Obviously that is not going to be printed in the DRF....

:rolleyes: a shame that bro derek takes so much heat for his return...he's probably won more $ this year, certainly more races, than the highly esteemed flower alley, among others....not that it matters!
i think bashing of some horses on here has far more to do with geographic location and pedigree than actual effort...

lava man for being a westerner, and by world famous slew city slew:rolleyes:

and then invasor, altho based on the east coast, most wouldn't recognize a horse in his bloodlines, and he came from (gasp) south america. no blueblood there either.

tis a shame, the horses have no clue where they are, or where they came from. it'd be nice if a horse got some props for winning, instead of getting bashed almost immediately because he's not legit...or first race back, a horse is rank, oh he must be a fraud. yeah, tell that to the owners accountant!


every horse loses, EVERY horse. what, two horses have retired as undefeated champs in the last century and a half...i guess every other horse out there is a fraud, since every other horse has a loss--or no doubt will.

LOL!!!
That trainer is certainly not the first guy to say something like that. And he won't be the last.
Steve knows DAMN well from our conversations off the board that there a few guys who I'm REALLY bashing!!!! Guys who make the guy I have bashed who is Steve's friend look like ****ing Ben or Jimmy jones!!!
I'm consistent in who I bash, perhaps you haven't read me long enough to know that. When I see guys who have a barn full of very expensive horses who consistently win very few or no races, they are gonna draw my wrath.
Ask Steve about our conversation about a certain guy named after a city in Texas.

.........hey, i caught that 4/2 exacta:D ...... bout the only race i hit at that horrible del mar.

that trainer is the same guy you are looking to send your new potential acquisition to BTW

You just stole my thunder you *****!! LOL!
I was about to end this with the punch line.
Yesterday at the Spa, I couldnt catch a break. Discouraged and about to walk out, I realized that the Bro Derek race was about to go off.
I liked the winner, and thought it was conceivable that Bro Derek could be out of the exacta. So I boxed up 2-4 and 4-5 for the same amount of money. And hoped that I could get the 4 home and have Derek not fire off the layoff.
I got lucky and he didn't.
The point is that i myself had no confidence in Bro yesterday at all. None. And I cashed by best ticket all day on that exacta (22 per buck was quite huge given that only 3 horses in a 5 horse field had any chance). But I'm not gonna be dumb enough to use that race he ran as an "end all and be all" of judging what he is, ane more importantly, what he was.

SHHHH, I already knew that(I know how he talks). And he's not my client. He's an often times partner's client. And hes also a perfectionist. If he won 10 of 11 races he'd bitch about the one he lost to anyone who would listen.
Thats what makes him so good, he hates losing and doesnt accept it well. And one of my clients wants that horse now badly, and it looks like thats where he will go if the accept the offer. Not another word about that on here please.

he's pretty funny that way actually...focus on the bad only that way you never look happy...
good for you if you get it done.

My main man grabbed me yesterday(he actually graced us with his presence yesterday) and I told him about the horse and he just said go!
He also hates losing. hes like the guy you are referring to, hates losing, and gets sick to his stomach when he does.

main man? the one with no cell service?

Oracle, you are very knowledgable, maybe more than anyone else here, but the personal attacks on Cunningham and his father are uncalled for. Saying a horse is a fraud (overrated) is not an attack. It is just saying the horse is not what people say he is. There are tons of horses like this. My brother has called Sunriver a fraud all year, and he likes the owners. That doesn't mean it is personal.

No Beth, the guy who took me out earlier in the meet and got me alcohol poisoning for two days.

that was my second guess---

Nor was my attack against Joel. And I'm not attacking his father in any way shape or form. he made what i felt was a moronic statement, I've treated my own friend Gander the same way on here. My attack was not personal, he did try to get personal then bashing a horse hes knows I bought. Are you that stupid Nostra to miss that?
read what others wrote on the thread, You act as if I was the only one picking on him. Others abused him as well. WHy not post something to them?

I dont understand how is he a fraud. How did he misrepresent himself? I dont get it. How can any horse be a fraud. He ran 4th in the BC Juvenile, 4the in the Derby and 4th in the Preakness. Then he has won those prep races in the spring. Again, it isnt Brother Derek's fault who he beat. He cannot help who his competition is. I dont remember Brother Derek coming out and saying he is the best. If he did then I missed it. I sometimes speak too soon and talk bad about a horse and that isnt right. But in Derek's case, he has been in all the big ones for over 1 year now. He has won some and loss some, but I dont know how you can say he or any horse is a fraud.

yeah, oracle goes at gander HARD:D

I am not that stupid, and I am very impressed by your purchase of a grade 1 horse, but you always bring up his money and his father's money. The sport is full of rich people. Is Landson IV going to get bashed because Lansdon III is loaded? Others bash him, sometimes I do, but never his families money. There would be no horse racing without rich people and their children.

I've called Lava Man a fraud and I regret doing so. A horse cannot be a fraud because they don't have the capacity to deceive someone out of money. I am retracting what I said and will now say that Lava Man is overrated and I apologize to all of the Lava Man fans who I offended.

Now Joel should do the same to JJ since the guy promoted Brother Derek and was extremely confident in him winning the Kentucky Derby and even touted him for the Preakness. In no way shape or form is JJ Graci a fraud and neither is Brother Derek.