It was an absolutely amazing performance, but I'm inclined to think it was a freak.

It must have come as a surprise to even those closely connected with the horse - wouldn't Ryan Moore have had the choice of rides among the Stoute runners in the race? I know jockeys sometimes get it wrong, but 17 lengths wrong?

I can imagine Moore having some affection for Workforce for giving him a Derby win, but I don't think that would have really swayed him if he had any inkling that Harbinger might prove to be 17 lengths superior.

And it's not like sticking with Workforce would net better results in the long term - Workforce is hardly likely to run at four.

I would not write off Workforce just yet.

The big Hawk Wing win is a lot harder for someone with an American racing background to appreciate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXbsSCdGLs

It came in one of those goofy straight line no-turn mile races we never see over here - in the rain - and he was allowed a free ride on a totally uncontested early lead.

In our turf races, you tend to get larger margin of victories and gaps between horses in the rare instances that they run while it's raining out.

Hawk Wing rallied from 8th to finish a well clear 2nd on yielding ground in the 12f English Derby .. that huge 8f win was the only time in his life he ever made the lead - and he did it so easily without anyone contesting it and at a distance of just one mile for a horse who had no trouble seeing out 12 furlongs.

Obviously, the performance itself was beyond amazing.. but you did have some smoke and mirrors in play ... while Harbinger came from mid-pack on firm ground in weather conditions that looked picture perfect.

I looked up Hawk Wing's form - and he only ran one more time after this. That start came in the Queen Anne .. where instead of galloping on a loose lead, he was back in mid-pack early. He was beaten double digit lengths in a total non-effort - obviously something BADLY amiss. He never ran again. Tillerman, whom he beat by 24+ lengths in his romp was 2nd in that Queen Anne .. a full 6.5 lengths in front of him.

The Ragozin and Thoro-Graph sheet people who make figures in our country would call that "bouncing to the moon" and they'd probably be bragging on their boards the following day about how they predicted the huge top figure to lead to serious impending doom.

The thing about Hawk Wing or his achilles heel was he needed fast ground to be at his best, he didn't act well or wasn't as effective to what the Brits like to refer to as when there is 'cut' in the ground. This is why I always regarded High Chapparal to be superior to him. He was more versatile where Kinane once even referred to him as a lazy horse that only did what was required of him in works and races.

No he didn't.

The two biggest wins of his career were the Group 1 Eclipse and Group 1 Lockinge ... his easy win in the Eclipse came on yielding ground and his 11 lengths win in the Lockinge came while it was raining.

He was 2nd in the English Derby - 12 lengths ahead of 3rd place - on yielding as well.

I know that what it says in the past p's, but I wish I could reproduce Aiden's quotes and the conversations I had with my Brit contact, I remember them well when it came to the big 3 in Aiden's stable that year. HW was much better on fast ground, obviously he struggled on dirt and when the ground wasn't hard or certainly he didn't run to his VAST ability.

MichAel Clower and Bill Barber

HAWK WING is set to reappear in the Juddmonte Lockinge Stakes on Saturday provided the going at Newbury is good or faster - setting up a fascinating clash with his Ascot conqueror Where Or When and Breeders' Cup Mile hero Domedriver.

The trio were among 15 to stand their ground for the Group 1 contest yesterday. Domedriver - who was

reported to be "looking fantastic" by Alan Cooper, racing manager to owners the Niarchos family, over the weekend - is Coral's 2-1 favourite for the race, with Where Or When

100-30 and Hawk Wing 4-1.

You said "he needed fast ground to be at his best" and any ground other than fast was his "achilles heel"

Here is his career form:




He ran 3 times on yielding ground - once easily winning a Group 1, once easily winning a Group 2, and the other time running 2nd in the English Derby at 12 furlongs to eventual 2-time Breeders Cup Turf winner High Chapperal - he was 12 lengths clear of 3rd place finisher (eventual Dubai World Cup winner Moon Ballad)

While his 11 length win technically came on good ground - it started to rain right before the race.

After his career was over - only an idiot would think he disliked wet ground. Horses who dislike wet ground get drowned over it on multiple occasions with no success.

Wait a sec...

I know of many times that trainers felt a certain way about a horse and were dead wrong.

Why would this trainer be immune to that?

CSC, You have no idea what you're talking about in regard to any form of racing in any country.

You should try your hand at greyhound or steeplechase racing ... you'll have a lot better luck at fooling a few people into thinking you know what you're talking about at those two sports.

:tro:


:tro::tro:

From the trainer of Hawk Wing, Less effective on soft ground.

Byline: Tony O'hehir

A HISTORY-making 2,000 Guineas treble is already in the bag, yet Aidan O'Brien Aidan P. O'Brien (born [1]]], is an Irish horse racing trainer. He is the private trainer for John Magnier and his associates at Coolmore Stud and heads up the training operation at Ballydoyle Stables in County Tipperary. is being

ultra-cautious, even by his standards, about his triple challenge for today's race.

O'Brien was avoiding inquisitive journalists like the plague at

Epsom yesterday as the rain-softened ground raised further doubts about the effectiveness of the long-time favourite Hawk Wing Hawk Wing was a racehorse, foaled in 1999, and trained by Aidan O'Brien.

He was the top two-year old of 2001 in the UK & Ireland, by virtue of a two and a half length win in the National Stakes. .

As trainer of Hawk Wing and High Chaparral
For the American TV series see: The High Chaparral

IDS was what 16 or something when these horses raced, and he who knows more about Coolmore raced horses than Aiden O' Brien and especially whether his horses are more effective on what type of ground they run on.

In europe trainer's do concern themselves with this, where someone that actually trained Hawk Wing would certainly know as Aiden has stated numerous times he is better on firmer going, not from using past p's as a barometer but horsemanship. I will gladly side with Aiden on this one.

And yet O'Brien went ahead and ran him in back to back races on yielding ground in the English Derby and Eclipse - and he ran tremendous races both times.

What's your next trick going to be ... find quotes from Hassinger and Mott about why they feel Cigar can't handle dirt and belongs on turf?

Not from using Past performances as a barometer - I suppose The Green Monkey was an all-time great horse.

What trick. I posted that Hawk Wing was more effective on faster ground due to conversations I had with a knowledgable overseas racing fan, I followed Euro racing then, doubt it if you wish. At that time most knew that Hawk Wing was a tremendous talent, another point I made. But he didn't act his best with cut in the ground. You post past p's claiming he could run extraordinarily well when the ground was soft. I am just telling you at that time there was concern from his trainer, from the british papers that he wouldn't run his best if the ground wasn't fast. I don't know why you doubt what I say or remember and honestly I don't care. But I am posting what was said then and I am sure there are some British racing fans that remember this time of racing and perhaps collaborate Aiden's thoughts back then.

I think the problem not lies in your memory of such things, but in Aiden's estimation of his horse's ability on firm vs wet ground.

CLEARLY he was wrong.

Being a complete idiot, though, CSC couldn't help but be completely, 100% wrong.

He first says this ...

And instead of backing off ... he defends it by saying that he doesn't use how a horse performs as a barometer .. he just uses "horsemanship" .... and I guess his idea of good horsemanship involves guesses at what a horse probably won't like that later prove to be poor guesses.

No, he's basically using the rationale that his trainer knows better about the horse than we do. He falls into that common trap where people believe that someone with limited brains that is closer to a situation automatically knows better than someone who is much smarter, but not tied directly to the situation.

So, despite what is clear to everyones eyes, since some idiot 'insider' says something completely ridiculous, it must be right.

I don't know if IDrugS knows that in europe they do not solely use the simple ratings as we do in North America, firm, good, soft, yielding. He probably thinks he has nothing to learn in the game anymore, but in an effort to enlighten him, there is more to reading up on past p's than what is offered from the DRF.

Here is the link to Europe's preiminate Horseracing Publication that will end this. Where terms such as Good/Yielding, Good/Soft, Good, Soft apply, a much more accurate detailing of the amount of cut in the ground.

Obcourse he used I guess the DRF past p's to base his entire analysis that Hawk Wing was very effective on yielding ground. But in essence it was labeled as Good To soft in the Eclipse over his hapless stablemate Sholokhov. If this is what he is basing Hawk Wing is effective on softer ground, he is surely wrong. He just won't or cannot admit that he still has a few things to learn about European racing.

Here's Hawk Wing's complete Past p's according to Racing Post. You decide, obcourse the alternative is Coolmore has a dunce running their operation, one that cannot distuinguish ground conditions.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/hor...orse_id=547525

BTW notice the lost to Rock Of Gibralter on actual 'yielding' ground.

Here is the field for the Coral Eclispe that Hawk Wing won on Good to Soft ground, even the IDS would have to admit this was an atrocious field for a Grade 1. All of 5 horses.

Sandown Result
06 Jul 2002
« 3:35 » Coral Eurobet Eclipse Stakes Showcase Race (Class A) (Group 1) (Class 1) (3yo+) (1m2f7y) 1m2f Good To Soft
£188,500.00, £71,500.00, £35,750.00, £16,250.00, £8,125.00, £4,875.00

RESULT RATE RACE Hide all comments in running Show all pedigrees
HORSE/SP AGE WGT TRAINER/JOCKEY OR TS RPR

« 1 6 Hawk Wing (USA) 8/15F 3 8-10 A P O'Brien — * * »
b h Woodman (USA) - La Lorgnette (CAN) (Val De L'Orne) M J Kinane
Held up in 4th, smooth progress 3f out, led well over 1f out, shaken up and stayed on well final furlong (op 1-2 tchd 4-9 in places and 4-7 in places)

« 2 2 2½ Sholokhov (IRE) 14/1 3 8-10 A P O'Brien — * * »
b h Sadler's Wells (USA) - La Meilleure (Lord Gayle) P J Scallan
Led, ridden over 2f out, headed and wandered well over 1f out, not quicken after (op 12-1 tchd 16-1 in a place)

« 3 7 2½ Equerry (USA) 4/1 4 9-7 t Saeed Bin Suroor 113 * * »
b h St Jovite (USA) - Colour Chart (USA) (Mr Prospector) Frankie Dettori
Tracked leader to over 2f out, soon ridden, close up well over 1f out, one pace after (op 7-2)

« 4 1 3½ Imperial Dancer 33/1 4 9-7 M R Channon 114 * * »
b h Primo Dominie - Gorgeous Dancer (IRE) (Nordico) Chris Catlin
Tracked leading pair until 3f out, soon ridden and one pace (op 50-1)

« 5 5 3 Indian Creek 8/1 4 9-7 D R C Elsworth 114 * * »

^^^^ Doesn't know when to quit.

Why should I, because I busted him?

Yielding is an Irish term for Good-to-soft you friggen moron. Good to soft in England means the same exact thing as yielding in Ireland.

There are a whole lot of things I don't know about European racing.

You - on the other hand - are a hopeless jackass.

No answer on the Corel Eclipse, typical. Many returns.

You trying to pretend to know European racing has been the message board highlight of the year for me. Yes - winning a less than steller Group 1 race by 2.5 lengths is proof that Hawk Wing hates yielding ground.

Oh wait, it wasn't yielding it was "GOOD- to - soft"

Tears, Jerry. Tears.

The original premise incase you missed it was Hawk Wing was less effective on softer ground, cut in the ground, give, use whatever term you like. He was more effective on faster ground, that is what I said and you tried to defute it by being a smarty pie even when I produced quotes from his trainer that said otherwise by pulling up some old DRF past p's. You failed to look at that god awful field Hawk Wing beat which included the Coolmore pacemaker for many of their top horses then, did you know this? And insisting that this made him some admirable yielding/soft turf specialist. You may fool most of your minions here most of the time, but I know better. I set the record straight, and that is it. Good luck at PID.

If by "setting the record straight" you actually mean "I kicked my own ass in to oblivion" ... yeah, you sure did set the record straight.

You set the record straight all right.

You've removed all doubt.

Damn you!

Harbinger suffered a career threatening injury while working today. Ugh.

That's what efforts like that do.

Your points were clearly defuted.