Wow. Not cool.

This is debatable. He was not only good but for a 5 year period (1971-1975) extremely good. During that time his record:
111-49
2.65 era
190 starts/96 CG
1.027 whip

He won a single Cy Young but finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th during that time as well.

He won 20 games 5 times in a row (I know wins aren't a great measure but 5 in a row in rare in baseball history)

He is remembered in an unkind light because his last three years he was not very good because of injuries no doubt brought on by the insane number of innings he threw the last year in Oakland and first 2 in NY. He doesn't rank among the very best pitchers in history but he certainly deserved to be inducted.

As for the worst pitcher in modern history, that may be a little harsh
he was a better pitcher or at least as good as:
Phil Niekro
Don Drysdale
Waite Hoyt
Fergie Jenkins
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Don Sutton
Early Wynn

Get out of town. All of those guys had superior bodies of work to Hunter, and about a dozen guys who aren't in the HOF also do. Catfish Hunter is firmly esconced in the minds of most baseball experts (read: non-Yankee fans) as clearly the least deserving modern pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

Playing longer doesnt make you a better pitcher. Show me a period where any of those other pitchers was considered the best pitcher in baseball. For the 1st part of the 70's Catfish hunter was easily one of the two or three best pitchers in the game.

Hunters 5 best seasons were better than any of those other guys 5 best seasons.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...itching_simple

So, what's your point? Dwight Gooden was one of the two or three best pitchers in baseball for a similar period. Does he deserve to be in the HOF?

Name the one modern pitcher currently enshrined in Cooperstown who had a worse career ERA+ than Catfish Hunter.

I can think of 20 players - pitchers and position players - off the top of my head more deserving of Hall of Fame enshrinement than Catfish Hunter. Players with good careers, not a couple good seasons. Hell, Roy Halladay has been a better pitcher for a longer period of time than Catfish Hunter was, and that's just one player currently playing who's probably more deserving of a plaque in Cooperstown than Jim Hunter.

You are implying that somehow Hunter wasnt a great pitcher when he most certainly was. You want to hold his last three years against him and the fact that he had a shorter career than most.

Dwight Gooden was a better pitcher at his best than any of those other pitchers, but his peak came during the 1st years of his career and his demise was self-induced. If he had 2 or 3 more seasons like his first 5 he too would have been in the HoF.

Hunter's weakness was the HR as he gave up a lot because he wasnt a power pitcher and didnt strikeout a lot of guys. But the idea that he somehow is much worse than the other guys listed is without merit.

Oh no Halladay hasnt. He has had 6 complete seasons.

Hunter was a big league regular at 19 and a great deal of his career numbers were earned at an age before most pitchers even make their big league debuts.

Hunter didnt have a "few good seasons", he had great ones. Again no one is saying that he will make any all-time teams but he is absolutly Hall of fame worthy. Saying that a player is "more worthy" is not really pertinent. You either meet the standard or you dont. He does.

Fact: Catfish Hunter played on a bunch of good teams, won some World Series, and didn't pitch a game past the age of 33. His best season - either '73 or '75, take your pick - is inferior to all but two of Halladay's total seasons since he became a full-time starter in 2002. I don't think Roy Halladay is necessarily a Hall of Famer, but if his career ended today, I think most knowledgeable baseball minds would say he was a better pitcher than Catfish Hunter.

Catfish Hunter is the worst pitcher currently in the Hall of Fame. His election to the Hall of Fame literally lowered the standard to the point where he is the minimum standard for which all other borderline pitchers are judged. His career ERA when compared to the average ERA during the seasons he pitched is eclipsed by only Rube Marquard in terms of futility by pitchers who are members of the Hall of Fame as of 2010. There is literally not a statistic on the wide spectrum of baseball numbers that can justify his inclusion in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Selectively remembering a couple fine seasons he had in the early 70's isn't going to change that.

Oh, and Phil Rizzuto is among the worst modern position player in the Hall of Fame, so at least the Yankees are covering all the bases in that respect.

Catfish Hunters career numbers
15 seasons
224-166
3.26 era
3449 IP
2958 hits
181 CG
42 shut outs
2012 K's
1.134 WHIP
8 time allstar
1 cy young (3 times in top 4)
led league in wins 2x (top 10-7x)
led league in era (top 3-3x)
led league in CG (top 10-7x)
playoff record 9-6 with 3.26 era

ERA+ of 104, as in his career ERA was barely above league average. A pock on the HOF admission process. Only Jim Rice being admitted can compare to Hunter's mediocre resume.

If you dont think that his 74 season was his best then I would have to question what makes a good season to you?

And Phil Rizzuto is not nearly the worst position player in the hall of fame.

Ray Schalk, Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker and Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell and Roger Breshanhan are all weaker candidates than the Scooter who besides his playing career did announce games for 40 years. The worst HoF selection isn't even a player but how is Bowie Kuhn in?

Cannon, have you ever studied the wins above replacement metric? It is supposed to very roughly determine a value of a particular player/pitcher in relation to a "replacement," i.e., a guy off the scrap heap making a spot start or something of the like. Care to know where Catfish Hunter ranks all time among pitchers in the WAR logic?

LOL

Thats all you can come up with? What about the fact that his 1st 2 seasons when he was a 19 and 20 year old pitching for a terrible team came during the period before the mound was lowered which negatively effects his overall ERA+? His 21 through 30 years which is what he was elected based on his ERA+ was 114. Those 10 years were outstanding.

He isnt even the worst A's pitcher elected. You would have a much better case against Rollie Fingers.

chuck you can talk about all this domination in the late 90's and early part of this century that you want , but , if you take Rivera out of the equation and say put him on the red sox or the braves , the yankees don't have 4 rings in 5 years , it's really quite that simple how much that one player was worth for the yankees and when he goes in a few years let's see how much they win in the big spots in the playoffs when they have a lead going into the 8th inning

football is the #1 sport in america there is no question about that , 16 games vs 162 games has a lot to do with that part of the equation

Yes and wins above replacement is much more accurate when comparing hitters

That's fine. It's not inaccurate when comparing pitchers, and Catfish Hunter is nestled right in between Doyle Alexander, John Tudor, and Bruce Hurst at 195 all time in WAR for pitchers.

You know who Hunter's career compares favorably to? Vida Blue. Where's his HOF plaque?

You arent going to get it so just go back to WFAN.

So football became the number one sport because of the number of games played? Why did it take so long then?

too many night games killed baseball

there were more days games in the 50's and 60's

Luis Tiant has better numbers than Catfish Hunter. Sorry, no plaque for him in Hall of Very Good. Likewise Jim Kaat. Bert Blyleven was five times the pitcher Jim Hunter was, yet he's barely getting anywhere near the requisite vote for enshrinement.

Let's just face facts that because Hunter was a Yankee during some very good seasons in the late 70's (not unlike Waite Hoyt and others who were inducted as sort of a team honor from those awesome 20's teams), he is in the Hall of Fame. There's really no other logical reason to have included him, great three or four seasons or not. I'm really most surprised Roger Maris never saw the Hall as his career arc really wasn't much different as a hitter than Hunter's was as a pitcher.

You can't discount Hunters great years pitching for the best team(it helps because the games are perceived as more important), in the biggest spots. He not only was outstanding during the rise of the A's but he was also an accomplished playoff pitcher which somehow counts more to voters. The fact that his high was so high, though brief, gets him in. If his innings had been managed more prudently he almost assuredly would have had a longer and more sucessful career. Compare his usage with Don Sutton's during the same era. he didnt just go from being great (and he was great 71-74) to being not so great for no reason. He probably should have not even been pitching the last 2 years.

The fact that Hunter played under two of the most notorious owners in history shouldnt be lost on anyone either. Again I am not saying that he is one of the top 30 pitchers of all time.

Vida Blue was Gooden before Gooden was Gooden. Another mismanaged career.

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You must be pulling my leg...

chuck if you don't think the game has grown over the last 30 -35 yrs , you are mistaken

I really don't think that hunter's election had anything to do with his yankee career. If anything those were his worst years and lead people like you to detract from his overall career. He was the best pitcher on the best team in baseball, one that won three WS in a row in a very controversial manner. He won 20 games 5 times in a row during that time. He was a very good "clutch" ie playoff pitcher.

Catfish Hunter is hardly the worst player in the hall of Fame. He wasnt far off from winning 4 Cy Youngs in a row. You want to kill him because his career was much shorter than a lot of other HoF pitchers and hence the few not so great years weigh his numbers down. But he was consistently great for 10 years. That's HoF worthy. Explain Rick Ferrell.

Dude what are you talking about? On one hand you say that night games killed the game and in the next post you say the game has grown?


All sports have grown in the last 35 years except boxing and horseracing.

the night games have killed it vs football , all the football games are during the day , kids can't stay up and watch all 162 games for all 9 innings

football has grown better than baseball , but baseball has still grown

Ferrell was Veterans Committee. Those selections shouldn't even count since that was basically authorized cronyism for the first 50 or so years it was in existence. You can't compare that with the writers vote, where I'd put Hunter in a group with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson for worst overall selections.

The Veterans Committee also stuck Tinkers-Evers-Chance in the HOF as well as such luminaries as the aforementioned Roger Breshnaham in Cooperstown.

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

Do you have ERA+ available? I think that tells a much better tale for pitchers.

Now there's a condition?

Well, now it's a public vote and isn't made up of Ted Williams and his 10 best friends. They basically stuck all their buddies in the HOF until the rules were changed in 2001 and again later in the 2000's. Half the really debatable guys in the HOF were elected through the Veterans Committee.

Here is a good list of inductees by year separated by BBWAA and Old-Timers/Veterans Committee inductees. Some of the Veterans Committe inductees (Hack Wilson, Heinie Manush, Goose Goslin, Branch Rickey, etc.) were probably worthwhile, but others (Jesse Haines, Roger Breshnahan, etc.), were most certainly not.

http://www.historicbaseball.com/hof/hallinductees.html

Dang, Arky Vaughan needed the Veterans Committee? Probably one of the six or eight best shortstops of all time. That was a BBWAA mistake.

I agree with you.....wht a putz.

I dont know why you would think Drysdale and Perry were so much better. Drysdale pitched right in the middle of the teeth of the best pitchers era in 60 years and his numbers are hardly better than a lot of these guys even with that. Perry had a lot of good years abut had a lot of pretty average years as well.

Free agency is only a problem is baseball
Steinbrenner is a major reason why.
No one can say he didnt spend to try to make his teams better especially compared to those which still profit while letting the on field product suffer. But you can also say that his spending was a major reason why MLB never was able to rein in free agency and come up with a better system of player movement/salary cap.

I am not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes. But he is one of the core reasons why there is a competitive imbalance in baseball.

How many great homebreds did Steinbrenner have?
How many did Springstein have?

Springsteen's daughter is a pretty accomplished equestrian. Regardless, even in jest, it's poor taste to wish death upon anybody.

RIP Mr. Steinbrenner. As a lifelong Yankees fan at times during his stewardship I disliked him and admired him...the bottom line is the Yankees won. He was also a very charitable man under the radar.