Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660165)

21 days is the new 40 days in modern training. Just look at Quality Road's spacing.

Originally Posted by dagolfer33 (Post 660171)

....psstt....be quiet. We arent discussing horses that ship all over the world and beat all comers. We are just trying our best to refute that Zenyatta belongs in the discussion of one of the greatest female horses in the U.S. of all time. :rolleyes::zz:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660164)

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660176)

Don't forget, according to one of the Zenyattards here, Goldikova is nothing since she couldn't win the BCC, which is the only race that matters (unless Z doesn't run there).

I believe, but I could be mistaken, that it was the smoothest of the Zenyattards that said that.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660164)

So again, people are upset about the surface, which I get. I don't by the argument that she can't run on dirt, she would be better on dirt, certainly faster in general (there are no fast synthetic horses according to the numbers, just an occasional fast race). Just maybe not undefeated.

Zenyatta after the Classic will have run three times on dirt, I think it will be pretty obvious she has a lot of ability on multiple surfaces and will provide enough to judge.

Originally Posted by parsixfarms (Post 660191)

The dirt/synthetic issue is obviously important for some in this discussion (not me). Also, I don't believe that it is fair to penalize Zenyatta for the fact that the Breeders' Cup was held in SoCal the last two years. And recognizing that equine athletes can have off days, her 17-for-17 record is a remarkable achievement.

That all being said, at this point in time, the issue for me isn't about shipping her out of town. While I'd love to see Zenyatta come to Saratoga for a race like the Ruffian or Whitney, I doubt that will happen. What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

Originally Posted by parsixfarms (Post 660191)

What I don't get is that her connections said that they were going to do things differently in 2010, and yet they haven't done anything in 2010 that they already hadn't done in either 2008 or 2009. The question is why, when Zenyatta has already beaten the boys at 10F, if she is not going to leave the West Coast, is she not contesting a race like the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic? Their mare having won the Breeders' Cup Classic and then having contended that she should have been crowned HOY on at least one occassion, are we really to believe that there is a male horse on the West Coast against whom the Mosses are afraid of racing?

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660223)

There is nothing to get. They were full of shid when they said they would do things differently. They've always been full of it when talking about this mare.

It's just how they roll.

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 660230)

What about Banshee Breeze? No one ever mentions her as one of the best, I am fairly confident she would have beat Rachel or Z.

From 7/25/98 through 11/06/99 she ran beyers of 102 or higher every single time. She held amazing form for 16 months. In this time she won 5 Grade 1's and was a close second in 3 others, 2 of those seconds came to Beautiful Pleasure, who was another great filly.

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 660237)

I put Smuggler in my top 5 all time greats list.

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE (Post 660243)

I dont know if shes been mentioned. Although she only ran 5 times. What about Landaluce? Showed greatness in those 5 races and would have been hard for any to beat?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660125)

Personal Ensign was a Grade 1 winner in just her second career start as a 2yo. She then suffered a major fracture preparing for the BC Juvenile Fillies (at Santa Anita) in a hind ankle that required several screws to stabilize.

Off for nearly a year, she returned at 3, and with just 3 starts under her belt and never having run further than a mile, she won the Grade 1 Beldame versus her elders at a mile and a quarter.

Her perfect 4yo season was highlighted by a start against males in the Whitney and the BC Distaff. Both of those races were on off-tracks. Both resulted in victories, not scratches.

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age. You'll say that the competition at 2 and 3 is easier, but I would say that it's much more difficult for a top class horse to maintain superiority (whether or unbeaten or not) in its division as it and its peers are developing (some improving, some regressing) over time.

Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

Personal Ensign's race record is one of progression, essentially each successive start tougher than the last. Considering the injury, an element of heroism prevails.

Zenyatta's race record is one of ennui, same old song and dance. A cloud of evasion hangs over it.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660256)

When it is all said and done, we can only analyse their race records. For each argument for Personal Ensign racing at 2 and 3 you make, I can counter with Zenyatta racing is still racing at age 6 where no BC Classic has been won by a 6 yr old nevermind a female. The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete, she most likely has 3 races to run to define her place in history, one has to be fair and evaluate her after her career is over not before it.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660127)

I couldn't possibly care less what people on the internet, with generally no overview of racing history, use to compare racehorses. Personal Ensign was an East Coast based horse, owned by people intimately tied to NY racing, so the fact that she spent her injury plagued career in NY is about as surprising as the sun coming up. Since you brought her up, however, I will add that while racing in NY she did face males in one of NY's biggest stake races ( the Whitney ). No shame in staying home. However, a challenge here or there never hurts.

Be that as it may, Lady's Secret was owned by Eugene Klein, who also owned the San Diego Chargers, so unlike the Phipps family, and like the connections of your darling, he was based on the West Coast. Now, while obviously if someone wanted a championship campaign, ya know....wanted to earn it and not declare it, they needed to run in NY ( especially in the days of racing before the internet when a campaign didn't rest only on a horse's laurels from one day ), he still ran close to half of her races at his home base. He found it possible to do a little ( OK, in her case, a lot ) of both.

You really need to take a good look at Lady's Secret's pps some time. Frankly, you should look at the pps of ALL of those on Steve Crist's list. It might give you some very needed perspective. It isn't that any sane person would ever even entertain the notion that Zenyatta is not a spectacular horse. It's just that some of us have a better sense of history than others.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660266)

The racing as a 5yo and 6yo argument is weak if the horse in question has not raced signficantly at 2 and 3. Part of the reason why older horses wear down and lose form in advanced seasons is because they also raced as 2yos and 3yos. There are certain opportunities and qualities in a horse that are displayed in the juvenile and sophomore years that can't be shown later on. Whereas a horses 5yo and 6yo campaigns can be mirror images of each other (witness Zenyatta), nothing is ever similar between a horses 2yo or 3yo or 4yo year.

Regardless, your point about waiting for Zenyatta to end her career is well taken.

Just to be safe, we should probably post your preference directly to the guy who was baiting everyone into comparing Zenyatta to Personal Ensign in the first place.

I think he's on a unicycle somewhere pedaling backwards.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660267)

But the Lady's Secret's are very few and far between, there are not many trainer's that would campaign horses today the way Lukas once did. Campaigns are now watered down for many top horses, injuried or not look how sparingly Ghostzapper ran in his final year of racing or Medaglia Doro for that matter. It was perhaps bad circumstance we did not see her ship the last 2 years other than the Apple Blossom with The BC being situated at SA two years in a row, regardless she is expected to run in the BC Classic this year and being that it is in Ky she will ship with maybe a race in NY before that. If she is successful, she would more than earned the right to be placed with the other great fillies/mares in this game. She is still writing her destiny in the game, you can't really judge her until the book is complete

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660273)

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660276)

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660279)

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660272)

I can't argue opinion, and I don't understand your last sentence, why would someone backpedal if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic and perhaps a race in NY say that race is the Beldame? Unless they are already biased against her. What are you talking about? Is that still not good enough for you?

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660280)

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660234)

You throw around great like nerf balls.

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660276)

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 660282)

You backpedaled because you were the one who tried to goad people into comparing her with Personal Ensign.

A couple of us obliged you and responded.

Your reply:

The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete

Look out.

Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 660302)

Uh why couldn't you compare Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660333)

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660279)

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up (Post 660280)

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 660339)

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 660337)

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660333)

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin (Post 660348)

ESPN's Tim Kurkjin (sp?) relayed a discussion he recently had with Frank Robinson where he asked the HOF how many home runs he thought he could hit in a season against today's players.. Robinson replied 30. When Kurkjin laughed.. robinson scoffed and said, 'oh yeah? 35!"

Originally Posted by CSC (Post 660124)

I think this is obvious, if any horse that has plans being there is healthy and in good form, barring a season ending after the Woodward for some.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 660283)

You're kidding....right?

I never said I was specifically talking about this board.

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground (Post 660339)

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?