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-   -   A question for those that do not like Zenyatta... (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36591)

chucklestheclown 06-12-2010 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey2315 (Post 657142)
I think he would've proven better than Curlin if given the opportunity.
I hope you are kidding. But, if you are not- we'll never know so Curlin wins IMO. I was just sayin I had little respect for Bernardini when he raced but in retrospect he looks like Seattle Slew compared to pos like Summer Turd.

Danzig 06-12-2010 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657147)
I hope you are kidding. But, if you are not- we'll never know so Curlin wins IMO. I was just sayin I had little respect for Bernardini when he raced but in retrospect he looks like Seattle Slew compared to pos like Summer Turd.

i think summer bird did pretty well considering his total campaign last year. he's actually comparable to bernardini in that both got a later start than many of their peers. now, bernardini got more wins, but i don't think summer bird was a 'pos'. i don't know that their one year stands up to many other horses top season, but neither was a slouch-and no doubt both could have done a lot at four, had they been able to race.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 657137)
exactly! i'm just saying that a horse should really do a lot before they start getting a ton of accolades-and i don't think in hindsight that bernardini really deserved a lot of the praise he was given that year.
Tough crowd. He was a tremendously fast three-year-old, the best since Point Given. Obviously these days, with so few truly great horses remaining, people are going to go overboard when a really good one comes along. Just look at the hyperbole machine from Rachel and Zenyatta fans. Bernardini was simply brilliant in his brief career.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657147)
I hope you are kidding. But, if you are not- we'll never know so Curlin wins IMO. I was just sayin I had little respect for Bernardini when he raced but in retrospect he looks like Seattle Slew compared to pos like Summer Turd.
Yeah, what a POS he had to be to win the Belmont, Travers and JCGC, crushing the 2010 HOY favorite twice in the process. Such a ho-hum feat that triple is. Jesus, there's no pleasing you people.

Danzig 06-12-2010 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 657154)
Yeah, what a POS he had to be to win the Belmont, Travers and JCGC, crushing the 2010 HOY favorite twice in the process. Such a ho-hum feat that triple is. Jesus, there's no pleasing you people.
exactly. quality road is supposed to be a beast and summer bird beat him both times they met-but he's a pos?

chucklestheclown 06-12-2010 07:56 PM
The 2010 HOY favorite...LOL. I've spent the past 10 minutes trying to log back in to reply to another thread re the inferiority of todays horses because of breeding practices but it may as well be here. The Breeders Cup and Eclipse Awards mean shat to everyone betting money on races except how they skew the ACTUAL RUNNING of races (like the JCGC) and the payouts thereof. I couldn't care less about who is named "Horse of the Year" except as to how it affects the results of the races I'm betting from June thru September, and that is a damn big deal and why CDSI is out a few K of mine this year.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657156)
The 2010 HOY favorite...LOL. I've spent the past 10 minutes trying to log back in to reply to another thread re the inferiority of todays horses because of breeding practices but it may as well be here. The Breeders Cup and Eclipse Awards mean shat to everyone betting money on races except how they skew the ACTUAL RUNNING of races (like the JCGC) and the payouts thereof. I couldn't care less about who is named "Horse of the Year" except as to how it affects the results of the races I'm betting from June thru September, and that is a damn big deal and why CDSI is out a few K of mine this year.
What the hell are you talking about? You're talking about the quality of Summer Bird as a racehorse, so explain to me what that has to do with handicapping and gambling and your damn big deal super winning awesomeness. Your comment was that Summer Bird was a POS. In this conversation, gambling and how you do at the windows doesn't have ish to do with the tea in China.

chucklestheclown 06-12-2010 08:07 PM
Wow. Are you REALLY that naive?
It seems that you are, and Danzig too.
There is NOTHING about horseracing that has nothing to do with gambling.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657158)
Wow. Are you REALLY that naive?
It seems that you are, and Danzig too.
There is NOTHING about horseracing that has nothing to do with gambling.
:zz: you said Summer Bird was a POS, I said that he pulled off a very rare triple last year, beating the best dirt horse in the world right now twice, and your response was "HOY? LOL. I win at gambling." Bravo.

chucklestheclown 06-12-2010 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 657160)
:zz: you said Summer Bird was a POS, I said that he pulled off a very rare triple last year, beating the best dirt horse in the world right now twice, and your response was "HOY? LOL. I win at gambling." Bravo.
Where did I say I win at gambling? If anything, I lose because of the ulterior motives of greedy owners who run horses in spots they stand no chance in and drop dead in front of my picks and/or trainers who "prep" their horses in races they should win by open lengths but really are just there for a public workout and suck up for third just for fun.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657156)
I couldn't care less about who is named "Horse of the Year" except as to how it affects the results of the races I'm betting from June thru September, and that is a damn big deal and why CDSI is out a few K of mine this year.
Maybe I misinterpreted this. Either way, this does nothing to answer my question of why Summer Bird sucks.

chucklestheclown 06-12-2010 08:24 PM
He is no Zenyetta...hell...he is no Zardana.

ateamstupid 06-12-2010 08:36 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks for playing.

Danzig 06-12-2010 09:25 PM
call me naive if you wish, but how does any of the above explain that summer bird is indeed a pos as you called him? it was pointed out that he beat quality road, this years presumptive handicap leader, twice last year-and you rattle on about cdi and betting?

cakes44 06-12-2010 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657161)
If anything, I lose because of the ulterior motives of greedy owners who run horses in spots they stand no chance in and drop dead in front of my picks and/or trainers who "prep" their horses in races they should win by open lengths but really are just there for a public workout and suck up for third just for fun.
Man, I must be an idiot. When I lose it's simply because I can't pick winners.

herkhorse 06-13-2010 06:10 AM
Chuckles should stick to late night stealth posting :zz:

Patrick333 06-13-2010 07:21 AM
Both are exciting to watch. Glad to see RA won her race yesterday. Hopefully Zenyatta will be able to keep her streak going today.

Thunder Gulch 06-13-2010 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 657182)
call me naive if you wish, but how does any of the above explain that summer bird is indeed a pos as you called him? it was pointed out that he beat quality road, this years presumptive handicap leader, twice last year-and you rattle on about cdi and betting?
That was last year. I think Summer Bird was a really nice horse deserving of the 3yo championship, but Quality Road is running at a level SB was never going to get to.

Danzig 06-13-2010 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch (Post 657256)
That was last year. I think Summer Bird was a really nice horse deserving of the 3yo championship, but Quality Road is running at a level SB was never going to get to.
and that is all pure speculation. i think summer bird still had room to improve. keep in mind, quality road broke his own donn record this year-he was no slouch last year at all. yet the bird beat him twice. and yes, summer bird was a really nice horse. i'm not saying he was the bid come back to life, but he was certainly not a 'pos' as chuckles called him.

clyde 06-13-2010 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 656927)
I lost the Baffert drawing. :mad:
Oh poo.

ARyan 06-13-2010 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklestheclown (Post 657166)
He is no Zenyetta...hell...he is no Zardana.
You really are a clown...


As for what this thread initially asked...I respect and really enjoy Zenyatta as a race horse. What makes me really want to see her get beat, and why I am unable to enjoy her more, is her ridiculous rabid fans. The fact they seem to never look at anything objectively with her, and only see her through pink and teal colored glasses is quite annoying.

slotdirt 06-13-2010 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARyan (Post 657362)
You really are a clown...


As for what this thread initially asked...I respect and really enjoy Zenyatta as a race horse. What makes me really want to see her get beat, and why I am unable to enjoy her more, is her ridiculous rabid fans. The fact they seem to never look at anything objectively with her, and only see her through pink and teal colored glasses is quite annoying.
Don't forget that pink and teal colored glasses are really annoying in the first place.

miraja2 06-13-2010 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 656954)
It would be odd to dislike a horse like Zenyatta, but I have to admit that at least a part of me would be a little happy to see her lose, just because I would take some enjoyment from the pain and confusion this would cause her legion of worshipers. The same thing was true of Bernardini a few years ago. I didn't hate the horse, but his fans were freakin' annoying. I enjoyed watching Invasor running by the colt in the final strides of the BCC just because I knew that all of Bernardini's fans would be dumbfounded that such a thing had happened.

Also, like Chuck and others have said, it would be nice to see her (and Rachel this year) being placed in better races. I can't imagine how excited I would be for the Foster today if those two were both in there against Battle Plan, Blame, Duke of Mischief, General Quarters, etc. That would truly be a horse racing EVENT.

So will I enjoy watching her run this weekend? Yeah, probably a little. She's a good horse who runs her race EVERY time. It would be hard not to appreciate that. But it is tough to watch her knowing that each victory adds fuel to the ridiculous fire set by her fans, and that usually (the BCC and the Apple Blossoms being the exceptions) there is some other race I wished she had been entered in instead.
Okay I admit....I enjoyed that more than "a little."

westcoastinvader 06-14-2010 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 656960)
That's no joke.
I was living in NYC in '04. I'm a Dodger fan and an NL guy all the way so I didn't give a crap about the Sox or the Yanks, but living in New York when they blew that 3-0 series lead was wonderful. I fully enjoyed every single minute of the pain and humiliation all of the fans around me seemed to be experiencing.

Hey, don't be so hard on New York.

New Yorkers have David Patterson as Governor, Hillary Clinton as US Senator, and the fine workings of the NYRA for the betterment of horse racing.

Fuggetaboutit.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerbyCat (Post 656747)
I don't want to argue about the merits of the campaign that Sherriff and the Mosses have planned for her, or even if she is HOY material, I just want to know if any of Zenyatta's detractors enjoy watching her run? Irrespective of who she's racing against, can you at least appreciate watching her come from last and always managing to cross the finish first? Did you not at least say "Wow" when she won the BCC last year? That was an electrifying event. Can you not respect the fact that she (and Rachel as well) have brought new fans to this sport - maybe not people who will bet much and add to the pools - but the kind of people who will now have something positive to say about the sport of horse racing instead of being indifferent about the sport or worse. At the very least, have you not enjoyed having a single on your ticket these past few years when trying to hit the pick 6 at the southern California tracks? :D

Before you attack me as a "zennatard" or some other derogatory term, understand that I am a fan of Rachel Alexandra, Quality Road, Zenyatta, Summer Bird, and the list goes on - I am a fan of this sport and a fan of the horses that make this sport exciting and fun. I just want to know - can you appreciate watching Zenyatta race? I know I do.
Hi DC! Its not that the "Zenyatta detractors" dont like Zenyatta. It is CSC and Booth Operator who we do not like.. and they make it very hard to appreciate Zenyatta to the fullest. Blackthroat said it best in a previous thread.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 656944)
people who know i'm a race fan have never asked me about zenyatta, her win streak...but they question me about rachel, the t.c. races, and even knew who won the preakness.
any horse who wins a triple crown race is much more well known or popular with the non-racing folks. The Breeders Cup means nothing outside of the horse racing world. The Kentucky Derby means everything to the outside... and then they will watch the Preakness (especially when a filly is in it). If there is a TC try, then the masses will watch the Belmont...

No TC try, and noone cares about the Belmont either.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 (Post 656960)
That's no joke.
I was living in NYC in '04. I'm a Dodger fan and an NL guy all the way so I didn't give a crap about the Sox or the Yanks, but living in New York when they blew that 3-0 series lead was wonderful. I fully enjoyed every single minute of the pain and humiliation all of the fans around me seemed to be experiencing.
I was in the city on a business trip in '04 at that time.. and yes I 100% agree.. it was wonderful.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 657133)
er, i wasn't comparing bernardini to skippy. i was saying that in the years since skip away retired, no one lost sight of all he accomplished, and his stature didn't diminish-if anything it grew. bernardini on the other hand....i doubt he gets much mention a few years down the road. he won't be one that later horses get measured by imo.
he's still in the very top few of best horses I've seen since starting to follow racing in 1996. (Skip away was the best though)

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 657137)
exactly! i'm just saying that a horse should really do a lot before they start getting a ton of accolades-and i don't think in hindsight that bernardini really deserved a lot of the praise he was given that year.
i respectfully disagree.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey2315 (Post 657142)
I think he would've proven better than Curlin if given the opportunity.
agreed. I rate him above almost all winners of a TC race in 2000-2010. Point Given would rate with him.

I would not be embarrassed to say that PG and Bern > Afleet, Smarty, Street Sense, Rachel, Curlin, Rags, Funny Cide, War Emblem (a bum), Empire Maker, Barbaro (yes I said it!), etc.

Indian Charlie 06-14-2010 09:58 AM
Barbaro was the best 3yo of the 2000s, turf or dirt. At least in this country.

Antitrust32 06-14-2010 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 657665)
Barbaro was the best 3yo of the 2000s, turf or dirt. At least in this country.
I'll agree with that, especially on Turf. Kittens Joy was a joy to watch on Turf also.

Its hard and maybe unfair of me to rate Bernadini higher, as of course, there was no way to prove that.

Barbaro was a really good race horse...

In my opinion though, PG and Bern were the two best triple crown race winners in the decade.

NTamm1215 06-14-2010 10:29 AM
I think it's really tough to say Barbaro was the best of the decade on either surface. I'd certainly take Kitten's Joy before him on the weeds as a 3YO.

Barbaro was terrific but he also beat a future 20k claimer in the Holy Bull and a NY bred who never won a race again in the Fla Derby. His Derby was very strong but that ended up being an awfully weak field.

NT

Thunder Gulch 06-14-2010 10:29 AM
I think it was Smarty on the dirt.

Any of the ones mentioned would have had this year's crop by open lengths.

slotdirt 06-14-2010 10:46 AM
I don't think there are many folks who watched Barbaro run on turf who would put Kitten's Joy over him on that surface. Barbaro was probably the best American 2YO on turf, well, ever.

RockHardTen1985 06-14-2010 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch (Post 657674)
I think it was Smarty on the dirt.

Any of the ones mentioned would have had this year's crop by open lengths.

I think Bernardini would have beat him.

RockHardTen1985 06-14-2010 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215 (Post 657673)
I think it's really tough to say Barbaro was the best of the decade on either surface. I'd certainly take Kitten's Joy before him on the weeds as a 3YO.

Barbaro was terrific but he also beat a future 20k claimer in the Holy Bull and a NY bred who never won a race again in the Fla Derby. His Derby was very strong but that ended up being an awfully weak field.

NT
Barabaro was much better then KJ on turf IMO. On dirt he was not much and cought decent groups, at best decent.

ateamstupid 06-14-2010 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 657694)
Barabaro was much better then KJ on turf IMO.
This is up there on your list of gems.

miraja2 06-14-2010 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 657694)
Barabaro was much better then KJ on turf IMO. On dirt he was not much and cought decent groups, at best decent.
He completed three dirt races in his career, only two of which were on a fast track. Given the performance he turned in at CD - only his second start ever on a fast dirt surface - I think you are selling him a bit short here.

Unfortunately his career, although accomplished, will always remain one of the big what-ifs from the last decade of racing.


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