Wow....at least you admit it now

Admit what? The amendments? That will be movements towards single payer.

you're admitting to the clear fact that legislation and ammendments will be made. the dems are in a position to steamroll it all. Your 2 examples are a wee bit out of the norm,don't ya think! Obviously they'd have ammendments

:zz: Of course amendments will be made. I've never said differently. I"m not talking this week, I'm talking in the future. This is just the start of massive reform of a currently completely unregulated private system that consists of 1/6 of our economy. It's not gonna be perfect from the get go.

And my two examples, Medicare and Civil Rights, were also very important legislation that made fundamental important changes, of course they, too, had many amendments down the years. Medicare has had quite a few, and the initial legislation for both Medicare and Civil Rights was very basic and simple. So that's why I used those two examples. They are very similar to health reform.

I've never "denied" that health reform would be immune from future amendments 1, 5, 20 years from now, so I don't know why you would say, "at least you admit it now" :zz:

you implied/stated that the Dems bill had been set in stone for months, and you seem to think that the good-hearted Dems will be magnanimus in their legislative attempts.

I most certainly have not. Quite the opposite.

I have always referenced the House bill that was passed, the Senate bill that was passed, I have always talked about them being different (as opposed to some here who have simply attacked some nebulous "Obamacare" cloud), and I have always clearly said that we won't know the exact containments of the bills until we get to the end of the process.

Just remember which party to blame when the QALY calculation is done and your mom, grandmom, wife, husband, whomever is told that "We can't do anything more for you...not because we don't have treatment options, but hey, you're not worth helping. What could you live, maybe another year?"

QALY = "Quality Adjusted Life Year".

Oh yeah, people are going to really LOVE this health care plan.

Think of it as equal time... it won't just be the unborn that gets exterminated anymore. They ought to make Jack Kavorkian the Surgeon General.

Joey, the above scenario is beyond absurd. "Death panels" is, and always has been, an outlandish lie. There is nothing at all like that in the healthcare reform act. Not even close.

and yet you would have a bill pushed into law before it being fully digested by the public....or are the sheep too stupid?

:zz: Both the House and Senate bills were passed December and before. Three months isn't long enough for you?

Riot, when any administrative board decides against treatment it becomes a "death panel" as you call it.

Or, more subtly, when the administrative board is so overwhelmed that the sick person dies while waiting for treatment, it is again a "death panel".

One of the many cited reasons for the "necessity" of this bill is the cost savings it will bring. Since more layers of bureaucracy always add costs, not save money, where will those savings come from? The limitation of resources: some unintentional (like the 46% of doctors who may leave the profession or retire early) and some intentional -- like hard limits on spending that are necessary. This in spite of millions more people added to coverage.

More people will die on line. This is exactly what has been happening in Great Britain.

No one believes that there will be a ruthless medical tribunal or something like is depicted in the movies. But a "death panel" becomes such in effect, not by title.

....like I said, set in stone! not a chance in Hell they will be the same when they hit "numbnuts" desk!

Good thing there is no such panel in the healthcare reform bill, then, right! :D

BTW, Joey - right now, it is the administrative boards of insurance companies - those people who make their profit by NOT providing healthcare to those they insure - that are making those exact decisions for you and your grandma.

You clearly haven't been following the healthcare reform debate very closely at all.

Do you even know what is being voted upon this weekend?

hey...I just wait for your updates!:eek:

you probably don't see the corelation of govt restrictions on healthcare pros affecting what the public gets in the way of quality care?

Good thing I can currently change insurance companies. It's harder with governments.

Please - give us an example of any concrete provision in the Senate Healthcare bill, or the Amendments being added during reconciliation, that will be anywhere remotely close to creating a "death panel".

That was all bullshiat scare tactic. It appears to have worked very well.

I have had practical incidents in my own medical history to base my opinion.
It is amazing to me that you feel that some type of govt intrusion is welcome and justified in everyday Americans lives.

Changing insurance companies won't help you much. Especially if you are trying to change from one that won't pay for something, to another. Nobody else will pick you up, now you have pre-existing problems nobody will pay for.

It is the insurance companies that currently dictate the quality of healthcare you receive in this country.

Having people in charge of paying for your healthcare, people that only make money by not paying for your healthcare, is a bit twisted, don't you think?

Right now it's your insurance company telling your doctor what meds and procedures they will and will not pay for (dictating what health care you receive).

Of course, you can have whatever healthcare you want, if you pay cash for it, at the upper end of retail pricing.

Thanks to your government, that will change and you will have more rights as a consumer.

What "government intrusion"? I like some consumer protections. I like it in my food, in my medicines, and now in my healthcare. I like my government passing laws that stop the insurance companies from their current practices of raping consumers.

There are no "death panels". There is no "government takeover of health care".

Say that 500 times and you might believe it! Have you seen the latest FDA advisory on Avandia,Plavix...and the massive recall of foodstuffs and grocery items?
It's a shame you waste your energies on propagating this drivel

I only wish that the bill actually revolutionized health care in this country as much as its conservative opponents seem to think it does. You guys seem to be arguing against pure single-payer or the Clinton Plan of '93.
This bill (unfortunately) isn't either of those things.

This talk about Great Britain, etc., is a waste of time. If this bill passes, do you know what country's health care system the U.S. will most look like in ten years? The U.S. right now.

Um ... speaking of drivel ... what agencies are those you are quoting protecting you, causing those recalls that protect you?

Believe me - the only reason drug companies even do minimal clinical trials, or have their lying and coverups exposed, is because your government - those agencies you say do nothing - forces them to light.

Seems true :D Start here, move forward. Let's see the up and down vote on Grayson's Medicare buy in at cost bill.

As the old saying goes...." a day late, and a dollar short" I don't call what the FDA protection...I call it CYA...or justification for existence!

So you want to eliminate the CPSC and the FDA?

What nonsense. If it were not for the FDA, drug companies could sell anything, claim anything, kill thousands of people, and nobody could make them do squat about it.

That would be nice, because I could immediately start manufacturing cholesterol-lowering drugs in my basement, and make a fortune ! :tro:

Great knee-jerk reaction for both of you! I don't know what the CPSC is or what it does. Elimination is out of the question,obviously....but I don't feel they have their priorities in order, as a rule.

:zz: :confused: :zz:

You don't know what it is or what it does....but you do know that they don't have their priorities in order.

I assume you realize that makes no sense.

And I will be making lead paint to paint the hand made toys that I will be manufacturing out of phalates. And they will have lots of small parts that easily fall off

I wasn't talking to you, and I was speaking about the FDA. If you want to do something useful, tell me how to BOLD the text like you've done. THAT would be helpful

When you quote someone....highlight the portion of the text you want to make bold and then select the "bold" option (which is B).

Directly above the quote you will see three options:
B I U

B = Bold
I= Italicize
U = Underline

Tim..did you play the guy in the movie Up whose house floated away?
:D

Can you send me $20 for a movie ticket and popcorn?......I'll let you know...there could be some misrepresentation going on;)

Thanks for the info! I can usually put up with most of the Libs posts, and I don't disagree with someones' complete post......but I have a NEW toy...so beware:p

the only reason that this might be true is if Republicans are able to kill it off or neuter it before things get too far out of hand. if they're not able to though, I guarantee that 10 years from now you won't have any trouble noticing how things have changed.

this isn't about healthcare

LOL!