Im kidding with you Drugs.

We will never knwo how good Neshobas Key was. She was good though, very good

I think when we spoke about Neshoba and Zen, Zen wasn't what everyone sees now. This last season has really been incredible for her. Can you imagine how good Zen would be if gassmussen, or somebody like that had her.

So what would it take for people of this opinion to think that Zenyatta is fully extended in a race? Start her move after 4f and continue it to the wire?

I'm looking forward to her "only doing what it takes to win" and losing.

Didn't she beat same Belmont, Travers, JCGC winner by 3 lengths?

Don't give me the surface. He ran his race. She was just better.

A horse like Summer Bird who does not really have a strong turn of foot is at a huge disadvantage on the Pro-Ride. He's at his best when he can gallop horses into the ground, he's a grinder. The Pro-Ride works against him in a huge way as it is a surface where horses who can wind up and make one powerful run are at their best.

Count me among those who wouldn't be surprised by a different result if a healthy Summer Bird and Zenyatta met at 10fs on a dirt track.

NT

don't give you the surface? you can't ignore it or pretend it's equal to dirt, or that some horses don't like it better than others.

I'm not pretending or ignoring. In what way did he display a dislike for the surface? He ran real well.

not saying he disliked it. but zenyatta obviously loves it. and there's no telling how they'd do on dirt. maybe she'd still beat him, maybe she wouldn't. i don't think just by them facing off on synthetic that you can say with surety what would occur.

I would say she handled it okay if she beat Ginger Punch by 8 by Oaklawn as easy as she wanted. Not bad when you beat up on a mare like that who banked over 3 million and won 6 or 7 G1s

i thought the discussion was about whether she could beat QR or summer bird on dirt? the answer is, who knows?

you have to be joking about Ginger Punch... she was the most overrated but useful horse in my lifetime... made a ton of money by beating slow horses in slow races, but she wasnt anything special.

It's certainly difficult to argue with a point made with such clarity and conviction.

Z's trainer has never liked synthetic surfaces. Z (and her trainer) disliked the surface at Del Mar. Fact is that she looked the most comfortable when she ran on the dirt at Oaklawn. Her trainer has a Derby Win at Churchill (backed up by a decent 4th in the BC Classic at Churchill.) I would not assume she was at her best on the Pro Ride. That's wishful thinking. This is still a guy who prefers training for dirt racing. Careful what you wish for.

Wish I had one that wasn't special and made 3.5 million winning 6 G1s

for some reason I KNEW that was coming!

:rolleyes:

no crap we'd all love to have 3.5 mil with a solid, consistent, but slow mare who beat a bunch of crap.

I swear she won a 1 1/8th G1 race once in like 1:54

Ginger Punch didn't fire at all that day ... and even on a good day she had very moderate ability.

Brownie Points was 2nd in that race. The same Brownie Points who is 1 for her last 7 in dirt races ... and that one win coming at Praire Meadows.

Even worse than that - stablemate Tiago ran the same day - and that bum was markedly more impressive.

I don't think QR was ready to run his best race that day, and I don't know if he would have handled the surface. Any dirt track in America, yes.

Then I need a moderate one to make me 3.5 million. Anytime you beat a horse by 8 in hand thats won 6 G1 you are at the top of your business. Quality Road hasn't beaten anything at all. He ran off the screen against a bunch of zeros. He lost to Summer Bird twice, do you think Zenyatta would beat him? I think she would drill his ass, in fact she did. He finished behind superstars like Hold me Back, Theregoesjojo.

Zenyatta has finished behind none, and until she finishes behind one, shes where its at. Regardless of her figures, her surface, whatever argument anybody has...The fact is shes never been beaten. The only thing going thats goign to beat her right now is Mike Smith. He has tried his best on multiple occasions.

I guess we can make an argument that Summer Bird lost to Rachel by 6. Summerbird beat QR by 1 and 3.5. Zenyatta beat Summerbird 5 and he was up and down like a 15 dollar BJ. That would put R and Z in the same catagory, although I would argue Zenyatta is better than Rachel, or was last year. QR is not even in the same zipcode. I think thats accurate of the 3 horses we have mentioned. We have two filly/mares for the ages, and one pretty good older horse running against zeros.

Sure QR has a right to get better, and he would need to run that huge race back against either of the aforementioned to be in the ballgame

At odds of 1/5 she found a gap in mid-stretch of the 2008 Go For Wand to win in an eye-popping 1:53.43. She beat some superstars that day like Copper State, Indescribable, Moon Catcher, and Runway Rosie.

NT

You're saying so much that runs dead contrary to sound handicapping it isn't even funny.

If Rachel Alexandra returns from the long layoff in similar fashion to how you've returned from your posting layoff ... she will not only get crushed in the Apple Blossom .. but the bridgejumpers will lose a fortune in that manufactured prep race she is supposed to have at FG in March.

I needed one

Im real sound handicapping. Those performance lines don't lie drugs. Thats just what hes beat, and what shes beat. Shes beaten everything, hes gotten beat by Summerbird twice, convincingly twice. How can she not get the nod over that one at the very least. He ran off the screen against zeros. What part of that is untrue?

The first time summer Bird beat QR...QR had one 6.5f prep.
The second time was a very fair contest except for they were meeting on a sloppy track once again.
I dont think a horse could be better bred or have a better style for the slop than summer bird...which makes RA Haskell all the more impressive.

So, with that sound line of reasoning...

Peppers Pride would have beaten both Zenyatta and RA?

If she won against open company on a major, against the best horses in the world, on multiple occasions....YES. Since she just ran against NM breds, you tell me

Oh.

So now that that particular argument is useful for your position, it's ok.

Got it.

Yes, running lines are very important. More important than anything else in handicapping, IMO. Class lines are more true than any speed figure

Are you insane?

He's a rabid fan of Brownie Points.

She also CRUSHED Ginger Punch that day.

Wouldn't you kill to own a barn full of Brownie Points? Man, that would be sweet!

Its just what I think, its how Im successful.

I can see using the figure as a light gauge, but past that I think the class of a horse, the running lines, I think that holds much more merit

So, yes.

That kind of thinking is how you successfully grind out a loss of 30% on a dollar betting horses.

Im pretty good Drugs. Ill come up to Presque Isle one of these days and we can sit down for an afternoon.

I know of this guy in NY state that would fit in well with you two there.

It would be the triumvirate of greatness!

Whats his name

They had the same type of arguments before the B.C. win. They said she simply didn't have the figures. I'll admit, I did not know if she could beat those, but she did. This has now become simple hatred for the horse. She's got the class, and she's handled dirt. I don't think they will beat her going 10f on dirt. That's plays into her strength(10f.) Going 81/2f-9f on a super fast dirt track? Maybe. She's handled Oaklawn, and I do think there's something about Churchill that suits the trainer's methods. Their arguments against her are best suited for the 2 fake speed tracks (G Stream, and Mmth.) They will keep on changing their demands. If she wins at OAK or Churchill, they'll say the track was too slow etc. They don't like her. No ass kicking' is going to change that. Look, this QR loved GS last year. He wasn't as good at the other tracks. On a course that's at all tiring, he starts twirling his left front. Even in the winning sprint effort at TOGA, he's twirling late as Candy Ass Honey Bee is sucking' up 2nd. He would need to be running on Sheetrock to beat her at 10f. Twirling is like an unbalanced washing Machine. The faster the surface, the less that machine is gunna start vibrating.

I believe I called Zenyatta a very dangerous horse in the Breeders Cup Classic if Life Is Sweet were to run well in the Distaff the day before.

I also know Zenyatta was the decisive horse that springboarded me to a tournament win worth four figures. She owes me nothing at all to say the least.

This has become hatred for sound competent handicapping. Nothing more and nothing less. Anyone who thinks she would beat Quality Road on dirt is either a fool or is trolling like the guy who stole Bid's login.

SCUDS talking hatred.

That's fugging precious.

RockHardTenNineteenEightyFive

Can't you stay on topic?

She also had 7 triple digit Beyers.

Just another slow useless 3.5 million dollar plodder