Definitely getting good. Essentially, if I read this correctly, he collected a insurance check on a horse he knew was alive. Crazy ****.

No...The insurance cut him the check based on the prognosis is how I read it, and since he ended up making it, they have ownership of the horse and will try and sell him as a stallion prospect now.

At least good news the horse is alive!

This entire story is stupid four ways from Sunday.

The bank cuts an insurance check on a horse who didn't die.
The owner, presumably...right, cashes an insurance check on a horse that isn't dead.
Someone, somewhere has this horse, alive...right???

Cashing an insurance check on a live horse, sent to you because he is presumed dead...is, in my opinion, an exercise in fraud, no? If that ISN'T fraud, what is? If you absolutely, wholeheartedly, cashed this check, knowing the horse isn't dead...

Now, the bank is just as stupid for not confirming the horse is dead. A phone call from a vet would do the trick - banks call firms to confirm funds available all the time - can't make this call?

Either way - ridiculous.

Is Thorn Song really dead?

I hope he's in good hands if he's alive.

according to the article, the check was correctly written/cashed. the insurance decided to pay due to the condition the horse was in. zayat isn't in trouble (presumably) on that score. since they paid, and the horse is alive, they now own the horse. i'd guess it's similar to the payout on war emblem, who is still covering mares.

zayat isn't under fire over receiving the check-it's just that 5/3 thinks they have the rights to all his horses, therefore they felt they should've gotten the check. i don't even know that the real issue is zayat-it sounds to me that the real issue is that the bank is about to fail, and they're seeking every avenue to generate cash.

Ditto from me. What a crazy story.

Thanks Deb for a summary some may be able to comprehend... if they bother to read it. It's nice to see that someone actually visited news sources, gathered information and digested it before firing away willy-nilly with zero uderstanding of what actually transpired. But hey... it's the internet. Let the innuendo and lynch mob mentality reign free!

unless it was a Loss Of Use claim.. But I'm certain my company doesnt offer LOU to TB race horses..

We arent the one who paid the claim though and if they are paying LOU on racehorses than they arent going to stay in business long!

Unless it was for A S & D.. but was he retired to stud before he was injured?

A bank doesnt cut the check, and insurance company does. And we require necropsy reports (like autopsy for horses) to pay out any mortality claims.

While it is correct that the insurance company cuts a check on an insured horse, they can not receive a necropsy on a live horse ...

But they can pay out a mortality check on a live one ..

Confused ??? Not so much ...

Think of a badly damaged horse where euthasia MAY be indicated ...

The horse is considered a TOTAL---like a totalled car --whether it is euthanised or not...

The insurance company thus can pay out on the total loss--so even though the check shows a mortality, the horse MAY be alive, but a total loss ...

Just like the insurance company appropriates a totalled car, they may do this with a totalled horse, and chose to proceed further with its " salvage " or not ...

This was done with Your Host by Lloyd's of London ... Lloyd's took over the rehab and ownership of the horse, after a bad accident that produced multiple fractures, and he recovered to stand at stud and give us Kelso ..

In a sense it was done with Cigar--who was a total loss as far as breeding worth ...

Ummm, while your analysis is (relatively) correct, you are trying to school someone who actually does this for a living...

i remember reading about 'your host'. he fractured a shoulder. they packed sand around him to support him while he lay in the stall. always had a significant limp, but didn't hinder him covering mares.

i don't think he'd been retired. they were aiming for the bc when he developed those abcesses in his feet.
hard to know the details on the policy/payout since zayat says he can't discuss it.

I work for an Equine Insurance company.

We can not, will not, and never have paid a mortality claim on a horse that is alive. We REQUIRE necropsy reports on dead horses to be able to pay a claim. (this was proved to not be true)

Check out my post above that discussed Loss Of Use, or Stallion Accident, Sickness & Disease.

it is 100% different than a mortality claim. Loss of Use claims do happen, we pay out about 75% of the horses value and we get ownership of the horse. or you have the option of getting a lower amount and keeping the horse. My company does NOT offer LOU to race horses. Also, you dont automatically get a LOU payment if your horses loses its use. You have to buy coverage for LOU (3.75% rate here).

Cigar and War Emblem fall under AS&D. Insureds can purchase AS&D for Stallions and if they fail in the breeding shed (like dont have live sperm like Cigar and War Emblem at first), then they can get a claim paid.

I think you are a little confused about the word mortality. It is impossible to pay a mortality claim on a live horse. Thorn Song obviously had AS&D or LOU or a fraud situation occured. (this sentence was also proved not to be true)

No she was incorrect about paying Mortality on a live horse. Just not possible. Mortality claim is for a dead horse. But there are other ways to be paid a claim.

You have to buy coverage for LOU (3.75% rate here).

Is that high? You have gelding (Mine That Bird) worth 1.5 and you only have to pay 60k a year to insure him against him being basically useless? If you insure (lou) him at a 1.5mil evaluation and he can only run in quarter claimers do you get paid?

We do not offer LOU to Race horses. That would basically put us or any insurance company out of business.

And we also limit LOU coverage to $500,000 or less. So say you have a show jumper worth $900,000 we can do the jumper for mortality at a discounted 3.5% rate on the 900K (or $31,500 premium) and do LOU on the jumper for $500,000 on the horse at 3.75% (18,750 premium) plus probably $375 for our $10k Major Medical..

Total premium for said jumper would be $50,625.

Let me add that I have absolutely no idea what actually transpired with Thorn Songs claim as it was a different company that paid out and they could have different policies.

I'm just explaining our policies incorrectly.

No I am not confused NOR do I not comprehend that it does logically seem impossible to pay a mortality check on a live horse ...

BUT--I viewed the actual check as per KY.com and it does indeed say MORTALITY claim on Thorn Song ( less deduction ) ...

So THEY called it as such, paid out as such, and though I am not in the biz, I assume that is how they did it considering that the horse was a total ...

And they knew the horse was not dead---see for yourself ...

When I said check in my original post, I meant THAT particular check--not all mortality checks of course ..

I do ubnderstand LOU, and I do understand what mortality means ..

Not trying to school anyone Phil--see above--that is what the check for Thorn Song said ....

That would not happen with my company, We dont pay mortality on horses that are alive. We must see a necropsy. Euthanasia must been recommended by a Company Approved Vet, etc. We also dont offer LOU on race horses.

maybe the check was written as mortality and wasnt paid as mortality. Also, why is Zayats check posted on a website?? that makes no sense and I dont think I'd believe it even if I saw it.. I just went to ky.com and it was for KY Jelly.

Ky Jelly---that is hilarious ...

The website I put up is wrong--I will get you the link so you can see ...

It also says " final payment " on it ...

You may not know me, but I am adverse to putting up shiat, and here you get drilled --and maybe rightly so--for posting what may not evcen be shiat--so I wasn't talking out of the wrong end ...

I found the check you dont have to post it and you are right it does say mortality. I really have no idea why the check is on a website though.

And you were not posting shiat.. If companies want to pay out mortality claims on horses that are alive.. more power to them!

Copy of insurance check:

http://media.kentucky.com/smedia/201...filiate.79.pdf

The check is on that website because the reporter that started the ball rolling apparently continued to do so--it is pretty weird ...

BTW---I had a friend who lost a horse to colic and there was a mortality claim paid out on a deceased animal WITHOUT a necropsy---it may be rare but it does happen ...

check your PM box..

I just talked with my boss and I'll put a foot in my mouth and prudery is correct about the Thorn Song situation. I guess we've paid out wobbler claims under the mortality part and kept the horse alive.

She told me a hypothetical Barbaro situation where you could pay out a mortality claim on a live horse..

when Barbaro was too bad to survive his laminitis and euthenasia is recommended by the vet.. we would pay the mortality claim. but if someone involved in the situation then wanted to try to remove a bad leg and add a prostetic (sp?) leg to try to save the horse, the mortality claim would have still been paid but the horse would still be alive. Basically unconventional treatment after the horse was bad enough to be destroyed. I assume the reason I've never seen or heard of this are that most owners dont have an unlimited supply of money to put into saving their horses life above and beyond normal treatment.

I guess you learn something new every day! I've never seen a situation like that and the claims adjuster I asked also didnt think it was possible but my boss set me straight.

Thanks for looking into this and reporting back ...

Weird things happen in weird situations and this was one ...

Recall a few other mortality claims paid off on live animals, but since I couldn't document but the colic one, I didn't ...

Am I qualified to teach Insurance 101 now--just joking ..

.....I was going to theorize that someone at the insurance company might have gotten a kickback but apparently yall have it figured out. This was a weird situation.

Follow-up on Thorn Song:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...chance-at-life

amazing and great to hear!! a step in the right direction in hopefully combatting a vicious disease.


from the article:

Though the insurance claim was paid off, as a “last ditch effort” rather than euthanize Thorn Song, Herthel decided to try stem cell therapy, a groundbreaking procedure in which bone marrow is used to help regenerate tissue. Alamo Pintado was the first private equine practice in the United States to open an onsite stem cell laboratory and has used the procedure to successfully treat hundreds of horses with joint, tendon, and ligament injuries. However, Herthel said they have performed stem cell therapy on only a handful of horses with lamintis.
“I thought there would still be a less than 10% chance for him even if we tried stem cell,” said Herthel. “But within 48 hours we saw a turnaround. There was a dramatic decrease in pain and swelling, and within two weeks we started seeing amazing hoof growth. We were blown away.
“It went beyond our expectations. It may be the most exciting thing I have ever seen. Technology is moving forward.”
Herthel said that Thorn Song, who is now owned by North American Specialty, is “not out of the woods yet,” but at this point is comfortable and his hoof continues to grow. He said Thorn Song’s quality of life is currently excellent and expects to have the horse at Alamo Pintado for a couple more months. He estimated that there is a 70% chance of Thorn Song becoming a stallion.

I sincerely hope this guy pulls through and his success story brings hope and recovery to horses thought to be without a chance as well ...

Stem cell helping lamintis is a very very big deal

That's great news.:)

yes, it is. glad to see they are finding better ways to combat the illness. an awful amount of pain and suffering for stricken horses.

That's great. Who doesn't like (potentially) happy endings?





Oh.. And by the way... just wondering... Anyone have any suggestions how Ahmed Zayat should go about getting un-villified now that journalists actually filled in the blanks on this oddball incident?

Do you believe the Banks position is still valid?

i don't know that it is, or ever has been valid. just because they file these suits doesn't mean they have a legal leg to stand on. they may think by being overly aggressive they can muscle their way through to get what they want. there's a ways to go before anything is proven either way. he said he declared to stop the bank-that certainly appears to be a legal step he could take in response to what they've done. whether people like how he names his horses or not, it doesn't mean the guy is broke or pulled shady deals.

Fifth Third wants out of the equine lending business - end of story.

I dont know if it is common for folks to collect on a mortality claim on a live horse and since that horse is colateral and or its worth if dead if it is proper for the Stable to keep proceeds? I really have know clue