?? Sorry, I am still missing your point, I guess. I'm not okay with what is happening now, because I consider the GOP to be doing massive political game-playing at the expense of the way the Senate is supposed to work.

Hoof made the point some think all legal measures (and fillibuster is certainly within the rules) should be used to oppose legislation someone doesn't want to pass.

To me, it is perfectly acceptable to work within the rules, within parlimentary procedure. The Senate is designed to pass legislation based upon a simple majority. Fillibuster is allowable and legal within the rules (although it's covered and changable by Senate rules)

What is happening currently, however, is unprecedented (and the Dems increased it's use in the last session, too, don't ignore that) in that fillibuster, and the requiring of a cloture vote of 60 to end discussion and have a vote on an issue, is the "new norm" for virtually every bill.

In other words, bills in the Senate should be able to pass by a 51-49 vote. That is how the Senate works (remember all states, even tiny ones, have the same number of votes as the big states, two).

The current Senate minority party, however, is forcing virtually all bills to have a 60-vote majority (the number of votes necessary to approve cloture and allow a bill to exit fillibuster and then be voted upon)

The minority party is, practically speaking, changing the Senate rules to require all legislation have 60 votes to pass.

What do you think about that?

That is proof? You mislead then give some flippant response. Maybe there is a job for you in the White House?

"Mislead"? No. I posted the section of the bill that contains what I said it did.
You said "prove it", and there it is.

Wow! What an honest and insightful man he is!!! Really? The system didn't work. No kidding. You probably think he should get an award for this...

So what you are saying is that the Dems are "letting" the GOP use tactics that are not legal? No of course not, they ARE legal and perfectly acceptable to both parties hence thier use.

So the Dems were content to sit on thier hands and just go along with whatever was presented when they were the minority party? Or did they use whatever tools at thier disposal to get thier point across?

I wouldn't mind if the GOP fillibustered healthcare reform (massive important game-changing bill). That's the point of fillibuster - to force debate, and not allow things to go through without debate (because the Senate only requires a simple majority to pass)

It's the fillibustering everything that is wearing! The fillbuster used to be rare, and has become common only recently. Yeah, the Dems increased it last congress to the point of abuse in some instances, but now the GOP has taken that to the max and is using it for virtually everything.

Our Senate should not be ground to a halt, legislatively. That's why Senators are elected, to reflect the will of the people as to what they want accomplished by the government.

The people elected the majority party, and expect them to pass what they said they would. Not to allow the minority party to rule the roost and control what legislation gets passed.

The GOP is severely handicapped by both houses in Congress being held by Dems. The fillibuster threat is the last straw of defense against the "Unholy Trinity" and their clandestine plans.

No that is why individual Senators are elected, not the Senate as a whole.

:zz: No, I said that fillibuster is legal, twice, within the quote you quoted.

The Dems used it, too. And the use has been increasing over the years. But when one looks at the number of fillibusters (requiring cloture, essentially thus requiring 60 votes for legislation to pass), this Senate has the most, ever.

Your next post will just say, "prove it", so here's a chart on fillibuster numbers requiring cloture
http://www.nolanchart.com/article7183.html

And here's the current Senate voting record
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...menu_111_1.htm

But when the vast majority elected - like 60 out of 40 - got elected on the same platform, the public who elected them pretty much expects to get what they paid for. Especially when it only should take 51 to get it.

waterboarding works..

No proof needed, just interesting that you condemn perfectly acceptable practices

Yeah, those dang citizens, electing who they wanted to the Senate and Congress, with the resultant threat of passing agendas the public obviously wanted passed! :D

You are making the assumption that they were elected on the same platform which because they arent all elected in the same election cycle isnt necessarily true. Not to mention that much of thier elected platform may no longer be relevant in lieu of recent events. Globally you can make your arguement and not be wrong but at the same time not be completely correct either.

i'd imagine the filibustering wasn't an issue when the republicans held control. oh, but that's different...:rolleyes:

Here you make the assumption that what is passed is what was promised.

Please, most Senators are old. Just running water in the sink would probably induce painful prostate awareness.

Bullcrap! The public voted for a dream, and reaped this nightmare of an adminstration and its' resulting agendas. The heads of Senate and House disdain and crush the peoples will as they try to ramrod legislation without proper review and discussion.

That is a good point. We sure need to get a public option back in the healthcare bill.

I'll be back.

me too.....busy day,but no football!:(

Then the Dems can resort to fillibuster as they get tossed out in droves.

but that's apparently not nearly as terrifying.

"the shot worked but I was referring to after the chemicals took effect, the horse was dead regardless" GTFOOH!

and call welfare 'the option to not work'

How about just call it what it is? Socialized Medicine. For those so PC their anus is oozing juices, Subsidized Medicine.

There really needs to be some sort of Constitutional amendment outlawing the filibuster. Riot is correct in saying that the Republicans threaten to use it far more now than the Dems did in 2000-2006, but the Dems did do it quite a bit during that period. Whenever the Republicans regain control of Congress (which unfortunately they will at some point) the Dems will be all pissy about how often the Republicans did it to them, and they'll do it right back for every bill they don't like.
As much as the opposition (whomever it happens to be at the time) may not like a particular bill, if the majority of the Senate - along with the majority of the House and the president obviously - think something should become a law, or someone should become a judge, etc, then I think it should probably happen. This business about needing 60 votes is annoying.

for how long has the filibuster been around? also, i don't believe it's that 60 is needed for passage-but enacting filibuster is a way to force debate before a vote, right?

The filibuster has been around for centuries, and has been used at times throughout the Senate's history (perhaps most famously when southern senators attempted to block the Civil Rights Acts in the 1960s). Basically it is used because of the rule that 60 votes are required for "cloture" which means the end of the debate and the bringing of the bill to the floor for an up and down vote.
It has always been around, but in the last decade both sides have begun to threaten to filibuster seemingly almost anything they disagree with, which means functionally you need 60 votes to get anything passed.
After a thorough debate, I think these people should vote "yes" on the cloture vote regardless of their opinion of the bill. If they disagree with the bill, they can simply register their dissent by voting "no" when the final bill comes up. Prohibiting the bill from even coming to the floor for a vote seems unjust to me.

one of my points is that it seems some only have an issue with the filibuster when it hamstrings their side. i don't suppose anyone knows offhand if any worthy bill was held up and never voted on because of the filibuster?

another point is, we are so impatient as a people. why the big hurry to rush to vote? what happened to the benefit of debate, of compromise, of finding a middle ground? perhaps this tactic is in use more these days because the attitudes of both parties has changed-and not necessarily for the better.

I am all for a thorough and vigorous debate. But I think both sides use the pretense of wanting to carry on a "real debate" as an excuse more than anything. What they really do is just get up there and engage in some political grandstanding. After awhile, I say let the bill be voted on and let the majority rule. Am I going to like the results whenever Republicans control the Senate? Probably not. But elections should have consequences, and if they won....so be it.

For who? I've not seen that. The Dems stepped it up (misuing it) under the GOP, but certainly numerically clearly not to this extent, and they still tried to get changes to the Senate rules, and the GOP rebuffed it.

(Current filibuster rules are from 1975, and they are Senate parlimentary rules that can be easily changed).

The answer is to change the rules, and put them into effect in the future, like 2012, or 2014, when nobody knows for sure who will be in power in the Senate. That will be tried within the next year, I predict, and let's see who votes to obstruct that change.

you've not seen what?

when the one party is in charge, the other screams for bi-partisanship,and uses any tool in their power to continue to have a voice. then, when the other party assumes control, those formerly in charge forget everything they complained about as far as filibusters and the like, and also ask for bi-partisanship. it just makes me laugh to hear the same things being said, but those who didn't complain when dems used the filibuster and cried to be heard now suddenly don't like it. when the majority changes, so will the complainers-but the complains always stay the same.


if filibuster rules didn't need to be changed when democrats were the minority and used it, i don't understand the need to change it now. as for who uses it more, your perception is that the democrats didn't use it as much-that doesn't make it a reality. it doesn't matter really who uses that action more-it can and will be used by both sides.

regarding the fact that democrats control congress and the house, therefore they should rule absolutely (someone mentioned that above), i say hogwash. we have a multi-party system. everyone should have a voice, regardless of who won more seats.

I thought you were talking specifically about filibuster rules, not the general entire political scene. Yes, the political scene is partisan.

:zz: It's not my perception, it is factual, by the actual numbers - read the numbers chart and senate vote chart on it I posted previously.

And btw, the Dems tried to change it previously (one Dem) when they had majority. Nobody was interested (not even the other Dems)

Today is a weird political day. George Will is defending Obama's national security and terrorism policy against Liz Cheney, Joe Lieberman is defending Obama's financial policy against McCain's Obama attack ads, and Michael Steele has not yet been fired :confused:

??? Nobody says they should rule absolutely. Yes, we have a multi-party system, and the minority party absolutely has a voice. What they don't have is the majority vote, what it takes to pass legislation. And they are acting like azzholes by coming right out and saying they are not only using filibuster to delay votes and require issues that already have more than enough votes to pass to require 60, not the simple majority required by the Constitution, on major legislation, but they will use it on every single thing, simply to try and "derail Obama's agenda". And they have. (again, refer to the actual numbers)

And that's costing us, the taxpayers, a whole lot of money for alot of whiney people who are unhappy they are no longer reflective of what the electoral majority wants.

nobody says that? i wish i had a nickel for every time i read that the dems won and are in charge, so suck it up.
as for using filibuster tactics costing us money, how so? do congressional salaries rise because they are engaging in debate? what's so wrong about forcing a debate before a bill is passed? both parties have the right, and both use it.. so what. i doubt that filibustering would ever keep a good bill from getting a vote. as for the health care bill, with it's thousands of pages that most haven't read, i think filibuster would be important. sorry, you'll fail in getting me to agree that this tactic should be removed. can it be abused? absolutely. there may come a time when the party now in power would like to have use of this tactic.

You might make it more clear when you say, "someone said" that you are not referring to the discussion we are having, and what other people are posting, but to stuff you've heard elsewhere in your life :)

No, the costs of keeping the Capital and Senate open, with all those concurrent employees, rises very quickly. It's estimated the Christmas week thing cost millions.

:zz: I've never said filibuster should be removed. I certainly don't want it removed. It must remain. I'm quite in favor of changing cloture rules timing, as was discussed previously here - after three days, numbers required for cloture fall, after another three days, it falls further, etc. That will keep filibuster intact, but complete obstructionism forever impossible. I also agree that Senators that filibuster must do it from the floor and be physically present (remove the "in absence notification only" filibuster). Both parties have to be present for this, due to quorum calls, so everyone will be less likely to abuse the privilege. As it used to be :tro:

Huge price considering our idiot in chief, who is not going to send any Gitmo prisoners back to Yemen, but will send 70 MILLION U.S. TAXPAYER DOLLARS to them (yemen)! :zz:

OH yea we get those prisoners in IL on our dime but it creates jobs again on our dime.

Riot is still the biggest dumbass on the internet.. she is really something.

She makes RHT's sports bets look good.

Pretty sure the dems didnt sit on thier hands when Bush II was trying to pass his most important measure.. one that would have been better than anything I've ever heard a Dem propose. Social Security Reform.

Our Govt. was set up to move s l o w l y. It was designed so that even if one party had control of both Houses of Congress the minority party would still have a voice. What do you think the Founders of this great Nation would think of 2500 page Bills that in the words of one Democrat require "3 days and 3 lawyers to read" then they still don't know what it says if they even bother to read it at all? Do you think they would be proud of this bloated, power grabbing, overtaxing, entitlement loving, deceiving, meddling, Constitution ignoring, nanny state of a corrupt Govt.that cares more about 30 million people without healthcare insurance, a lot of whom are here illegally, or others who don't even want it, than the 30 million adult Americans who can't read or write even though we spend more tax dollars on education than most other countries spend on everything? The spineless weasels in D.C. care more about being "politically correct" than about just being correct.

Funny, you didn't characterize me as the biggest dumbass on the internet when I and D started collecting money from the Dee Tee owners to give Steve money to replace the Dee Tee silks that were stolen. You thought I was quite nice then.