That is complete bs. Your exposure to a player is directly linked to where he plays and you live.

If Vlad didnt reach that level, what exactly would that level need to be? His closest comparisons are Willie, Freaky and the Duke!

Vlad Guerrero was twice the baseball player that Jim Thome was. He shouldnt be unfairly judged because he was unfortunately drafted by Montreal.

There are already a lot of borderline guys in. Jim Rice for example.

Those numbers are the only things that Shef and Thome were good at. Not to mention that Jones was a far better fielder than both and played an actual defensive position his whole career. Should a DH/horrific fielder be downgraded against a position player? Absolutely

oh some list that omits about 4 teams of players, one being the Cardinals and saying that a certain whole starting pitching staff is listed?

The one player that no one listed as a yes and has been the subject of steroid talk is Tejada.

His numbers rank him among the top 4 or 5 SS already in the HoF. Of course he has no shot unless the vets committee in 2040 looks at the numbers and cant figure out how we missed him.

Of course he has no shot because of the steroids thing.

[quote=Cannon Shell]Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro YES

Vlad Guerrero YES

Jim Thome NO

John Smoltz NO

Johnny Damon NO

Trevor Hoffman NO

Todd Helton NO

Chipper Jones NO

Bobby Abreu LOLOL

Gary Sheffield NO

Miguel Tejada NO

Andy Pettite YES

omg

The only definite for me is Smoltz.

I would highly consider Ichiro, Guerrero, and Hoffman.

Helton is tough but no...once the humidor went into Coors his numbers plummeted.
Jones may be close as well.

The rest...no.

Abreu is a very underrated offensive player but certainly not a HOF'er.

[quote=RockHardTen1985]I guess this as good a place as any to point out the merits of John Smoltz.
His lifetime record is 213 - 155 but considering he lost a year to injury and was a full time closer the following 4 years afterwards it looks a lot more impressive. Had he just pitched normally during those 5 years he would be at around 285-290 right now. The fact that he was able to mid-career become the best relief pitcher in the NL and record 154 saves in 3 1.2 years then go back to the rotation and become one of the leagues best starters at age 37-40 is unparalleled in baseball history. When you look at the other stats like k's, era, whip, k/9, Innings, saves, h/9, bb/9, k/bb, he is clearly HoF caliber. He twice led the league in wins and win%, led the league in k's, Innings pitched and saves. Think about that, led the league in innings pitched and also led in saves. Smoltz won a Cy Young as a starter and finished third as a closer. He also won a silver slugger award.

But what seals the deal is his post season performance. His record was 15-4 with a 2.67 era and 4 saves in 41 games. He was 7-0 with 3 saves in the NLDS. 6-2 with a 2.83 era in the NLCS and 2-2 with a 2.47 era in the WS.

Of the 4 losses one was 2-1 to the Phils in 93, Smoltz gave up both runs unearned.
The 96 loss in the WS was a 1-0 loss when the run was again unearned.
The loss in the 99 series was a 4-1 loss where he gave up 3 runs, all earned.
The 97 loss was the only one where he didnt pitch well, giving up 5 runs in 6 innings in a 5-2 loss.
So in his 4 postseason losses the Braves scored 5 runs while he gave up 8.

He also got a ND in the famous Jack Morris 10 inning series clincher in 1991, going into the 8th and not allowing a run.

He not only is a lock, he is quite deserving.

My 2 cents

My 3 cents

First the yes's:
Ichiro: somewhat marginal because his BA is 28th in baseball history, but his lack of power and OBP (consequently OPS) is so low but I think his impact as the greatest Asian player pushes him in. Also a stunning defender with 8 straight Gold Gloves.

Guerrero: anybody saying no, have you actually seen this guy play? he can hit any pitch anywhere. he's 22nd in the history of baseball in OPS and every player in front of him is in the Hall (or will be). A 188 James Hall of Fame Monitor score (140 is considered a "cinch").

Thome: tough call because of the steroid rumors but 564 home runs and 20th overall in OPS is tough to ignore.

Smoltz: he's been a top 5-10 pitcher for 20 years in both starting and relief roles. enough said

Hoffman: he's the career leader in saves by a longshot. how could that not be enough when saves are so important in this era?

Helton: He ranks 10th in all-time OPS. the players in front of him? Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, Pujols, Bonds, Foxx, Greenberg, Hornsby, Ramirez. Enough said. Say what you want about Colorado but his road stats are pretty amazing too. 162 JHoFM score

Jones: 25th all time in OPS- see above cases, a 162 James Hall of Fame Monitor score. A cinch (even though I hate him)

no's:

Damon: Not even close on any measure.

Abreu: Never had more than 31 homers in a season and his best accomplishment is leading the league in doubles 2002. not even close

Sheffield: Close on some measures, like the 500 home run mark, but was never a good postseason player, and the steriod issue looms large.

Tejada: same as above

Pettite: tough to exclude but I feel like he's missing a few wins given the black cloud. If he gets to 250 I'd reconsider.

Ichero-----Guerrero---smoltz-----Pettite

[quote=Cannon Shell]I really like Smoltz and he was the toughest one for me to leave out. Even though I think he will make it, if I had a vote, he wouldn't get it. He was a really, really good pitcher and he was great in the post-season. But that's just it. He was consistently good and was so for a long time. But except for one season, he was never great. He did win the Cy Young once but that was his only 20-win season. Only three times did he finish in the top five of the Cy Young voting. Tom Glavine won two and finished in the top five six times. Maddux won four and finished in the top five nine times. Smoltz was in the top three of the voting only twice (Glavine six times, Maddux seven times). Those guys were the dominant pitchers and the no-brainers here. Smoltz was a cut below. I think that at the same time a player like Helton's numbers should be examined closer because of where he played, I think Smoltz' should be examined closer because of where he played. Not because it was IN Atlanta but because it was FOR Atlanta. Those teams were always among the best in baseball. If you look at the stretch of his career starting in 1991 when they won their first division title until 2005 when they won their last in their great run, you find something that I think is kind of interesting. Here's his winning % per season against the teams winning %:

Year.........Smoltz..........Braves.......Glavine. .....Maddux
91..............519.............580..........645.. .........na
92..............556.............605..........714.. .........na
93..............577.............642..........786.. .........667
94..............375.............596..........591.. .........727
95..............632.............625..........696.. .........905
96..............750.............593..........600.. .........577
97..............556.............623..........667.. .........826
98..............850.............654..........769.. .........667
99..............579.............636..........560.. .........679
00...............na..............586..........700. ..........679
01...............na..............543..........696. ..........607
02...............na..............630..........621. ..........727
03...............na..............623...........na. ...........593
04...............na..............593...........na. ............na
05..............667.............556...........na.. ...........na

In 2000, Smoltz was hurt and didn't pitch and from 2000-04, he was a reliever. That leaves 10 seasons as a starting pitcher and in those 10 seasons, only four times did he finish with a higher winning % than the team did. Glavine was better than the team in nine of his 12 years and Maddux was better than the team in nine of his 11. It makes me wonder what his record would look like if he was playing for more average teams during that span? Was he more a product of his environment that people want to admit? His post-season success pushes him closer to being in and I wouldn't have any problem with anyone that felt like he deserves it. It's that close. But I wouldn't vote close. I'd only vote those guys that made me say yes as soon as you mentioned their names.

During 10 games of the 2005 post, he hit .184, and had just 1 rbi. The Halos had a shot to beat the Chisox that year, but this guy came up totally useless. He has had a decent post this year. He has 2 doubles. That gives your HOFamer a grand total of 3 post season doubles in his career. He has had a home run this post season. That now gives him a grand total of 2 post season home runs. Even with a nice post season in 2009, the guy has a total of 5 career post season extra-base hits. Sorry, but I am more scoreboard than you. They got him to help them get a ring. What did he do for them in the post of 2004, 2005, 2007, and 2008? He got 2 extra base hits in 75 post season at bats. No, I wouldn't vote for him, but I can see where fantasy playing types would. If he had retired at the end of last year, would you have voted for him to go into the HOF with 2 extra base hits in 75 post season at bats? Just wondering. He's incredibly talented, but he's just about as stupid as they come. If he would have made any effort at all to stop swinging at pitchers pitches (out of the zone,) then he would of been incredible. This is a player that you respect less the more you watch him. I have seen plenty of this guy. I told ya I saw almost every Halo game in the 2nd half in 2006. He swings at sht, and grounds out n' pops up. That's probably why this individual hit .262 with men in scoring position this year. He's has the opposite of the Phil's plate game plan. To be honest, he has the talent to hit .362 with men in scoring position. All that swinging at sht adds up. Yea, he may not strike out that much, but he grounds out/pops out on pitcher's pitches (a lot.) You think I just randomly don't like the guy? That is reserved for Ichiro. I plead guilty of bias against that dude. He bores me to dozing. Really, when that guy gets on base, I'm like "how did Ichiro get on? I missed it." At least Ichiro is a good defensive player. Guerrero was horrible on D.

Times run out. His swing looks like he should of retired last year.

Like I said, sometimes your logic is mindboggling.

He is a no brainer on my list....greatest contact hitter,,,

I went to see Seattle play in 2007 just after the all star break and was delighted to finally see Ichiro play. He had just gotten MVP for the all star game and in the 2 games I went to, he went 0-9 :( Never saw him get on base!!!

Do you know how easy it is for one to do what you just did? Anyone can can state a totally unsubstantiated charge or accusation against a person. This is so common on here, because it's quick n' easy. You say my logic is mindboggling. That's an effort to distract, and not have to respond to the facts I used. It's a smear. When people disagree with someone, the adult thing to do is simply say you disagree, and respond to the evidence the person used to explain their point of view, or give more evidence in support of your opinion. I don't know why you can't just say you feel your evidence is the more important evidence (instead of attacking someone with a vague accusation.) I gave you a point of view. You stated the facts to support your opinion. I gave the facts supporting my opinion. I respected your opinion, and the facts you supported it with. I don't consider it mindboggling to think a HOF candidate with 108 post season at bats should have more than 5 extra base hits in the post.

[quote=Cannon Shell]Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro...absolute lock

Vlad Guerrero...yes

Jim Thome...no

John Smoltz...yes

Johnny Damon...no

Trevor Hoffman...yes

Todd Helton...no

Chipper Jones...maybe

Bobby Abreu...no

Gary Sheffield...no

Miguel Tejada...no

Andy Pettite...possibly


Amazed that Ichiro isn't 100%, leaving him out of the Hall would be the biggest crime since Pete Rose!

QUOTE=Cannon Shell]Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro Big, A BIG yes for hitting it where they anit, work ethic and character.

Vlad Guerrero, NO

Jim Thome, NO

John Smoltz, yes

Johnny Damon, NO

Trevor Hoffman, Yes

Todd Helton, NO

Chipper Jones, too early

Bobby Abreu, NO

Gary Sheffield, NO

Miguel Tejada, NO

Andy Pettite, NO

[quote=Cannon Shell]
I'm tired today so I just put up this....:$: :$: :tro:

It is mindboggling that a person could state that having 5 extra base hits in 108 postseason at bats spread over five years somehow cancels out or trumps what the player in question has accomplished with his other 7948 plate appearances. I suppose A-rod would have been a victim of that same ....unusual....logic.

Especially when that same player has had two game winning or tying singles in the current post season.

Should Ernie Banks be kicked out because he has no post season hits?

Thank you. I much prefer you to state "why" you feel someone is this or that. I value the post season stuff more than you do. If someone is a great player, then they need to show it on the biggest stage. That's true in any sport, or in any other type of entertainment. I don't believe post-season performance cancels anything out. I see it as something(a good post season performance) that should be present. Yea, AROD has choked a lot in the post, but he finally performed well there. Why are ya bringing him up, though? He's a D.Q. He juiced. That's a D.Q. I find it mind boggling that you would consider putting juicers in the HOF. Yes, you could possibly say that some players performance before( or after juicing) should be counted. Is that what you're reasoning is, or are you attending the Jeff Skilling School of ethics? To me, it's a bad message to society to allow them in. I don't want them arrested, or punished in any other way than this (HOF D.Q.) As a trainer, you have to compete against cheaters. If you aren't also cheatin', then they've cost you n' your clients money. That's one thing, but voting them into some honorable club is another. Far as Ernie Banks goes, that was before players were able to have the freedom to join clubs in order to get a chance to be in the post. Now, a great player will find their way to the post. People think Tex is great. Well, he isn't in Texas anymore. He's good enough that he was able to go sign with a team that would get to the post.

Rizzuto is in.

I'd say we could pretty much make a case for anyone who's been to a game.

I told ya that #27 is stupid. Please tell me how any future HOFamer can be standing between 1st n' 2nd when a no-out pop fly is being caught in short right field. I don't get that. I now name this future HOFamer Ricky Retardo. I've seen him play plenty. Now you see just how stupid he can be. People in SOCAL (like me n' this 2HOT4TV) have seen this guy play a lot. Notice we aren't so sure we want someone this stupid in the HOF. That's a supermush. So, come on Mr. Retardo, and show you're the great future HOFamer they're talking about. Hit some bombs n' gap jobs.

You think Steve Garvey should be in. Enough said...

At least he has a ring, n' went to the World Series what? 5 times? It's not a crime if he isn't in, but it's a crime that a lesser player (Perez) did get in.

Effort to distract.....Fully noted.

If VLADE hits it out right now(against Rivera,) then I'll change my vote.

What the hell. He knocked in a run against a future HOF reliever. He's had 3 hits in a big post game. I change my vote.

Vladimar Guerrero (Ricky Retardo)- YES

Ichiro - duh

Vlad Guerrero - yes

Jim Thome - no

John Smoltz - yes

Johnny Damon - umm no

Trevor Hoffman - yes

Todd Helton - yes

Chipper Jones - probably

Bobby Abreu - no

Gary Sheffield - can't be objective

Miguel Tejada - umm no

Andy Pettite - maybe

go yankees!! go cheese fries!!:tro:

Garvey had that classic batting stance and a perfect swing of the bat, great glove at first bace, but he had "Steve Sax syndrom". He threw like a girl.

It was pretty ugly. Wasn't that innacurate. Just mainly ugly.

Nobody on the Angels wanted to sept up and play the game.

Sad thing was that if Vlad had hit a timely homer to win the game last night and the Angels went on to win game 7 he still had a chance to be MVP. Now that was sad.

Vlad is out of here along with Chone "I Cant hit when it counts" Figgins.

Anybody need Gary Mathew jr??????????

Ichiro YES

Vlad Guerrero YES

Jim Thome YES but barely

John Smoltz YES

Johnny Damon NO

Trevor Hoffman NO but he'll probably get in

Todd Helton NO

Chipper Jones YES

Bobby Abreu NO

Gary Sheffield YES

Miguel Tejada NO, steroids will cost him votes

Andy Pettite NO

Well, Vlad had 14 hits (with 3 doubles, and a home run) and 7 RBI in this post. He had 7 hits n' 4 walks in last years post (but just 1 extra-base hit, and no RBI.) The last 2 years, he has a .474 obp in the post. He has now elevated his post-season batting average to a respectable .286. He will go into the Hall with just 6 post season extra-base hits, and no ring. He did enough (with decaying skills) in this post for me to say he's a HOFamer, but his lack of intellect (and plate discipline) kept him from being the difference maker he should of been. A classic example of that was shown last night. He reaches for an outside pitch about 5 inches off the ground, and somehow gets a bloop double. If he takes that pitch for a ball, then he might of had a chance to get a better pitch to hit. One that could of been put in the seats. The game also has an example of his low intellect. Nobody should ever be standing between 1st n' 2nd when a no-out pop fly is being caught in short right field. This game is a good example of this guy's skill, but it's also a great example of someone who is pretty stupid. Takes a lot of talent to get a stupid person into the HOF.

I love when people talk about no rings as a negative for a player. Like the other 24 guys on the team dont share a part in the good or bad. It is baseball, not golf or tennis.