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-   -   Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32373)

The Indomitable DrugS 10-21-2009 01:56 PM
Mizzen Mast got hurt right when it looked like he turned the corner to become a serious horse.

Only a single Gr 3 win on turf though. And only two races on dirt with Giant Gentleman 2nd both times. Certainly not enough .. but the talent was there at the end.

CSC 10-21-2009 04:11 PM
Volponi, memorable wins in the Classic, Poker, and Pegasus and a decent 3rd in the Sword Dancer.

*The field he beat in the Classic actually had some quality names in there.

NTamm1215 10-21-2009 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Volponi, memorable wins in the Classic, Poker, and Pegasus and a decent 3rd in the Sword Dancer.

*The field he beat in the Classic actually had some quality names in there.
Volponi was never that good on turf.

NT

slotdirt 10-21-2009 04:20 PM
Poor, old Prized is still hanging with BTA in Charles Town.

CSC 10-21-2009 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215
Volponi was never that good on turf.

NT
He wasn't great but he wasn't chopped liver either. I could be wrong cuzz the memory is sorta fuzzy with him but I remembered him having many Jockies ride him or he would always run into some good horse.

The Indomitable DrugS 10-21-2009 04:37 PM
Volponi was just 1-for-8 on turf after his 2yo season - and 2-for-10 overall ... but yeah, he certainly could run his race on it.


Here's one of my favorite turf horses from the past ... he went from getting beat 14 lengths in a maiden claiming race in one November - to 5/2 odds in the Breeders Cup Mile the following November.



He would be a top 5 on a sucks on dirt and awesome on turf list if restricted to just American horses. There have been a lot of excellent Euro's who rocked on turf and couldn't beat anything on dirt.

RolloTomasi 10-21-2009 05:27 PM
Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

freddymo 10-21-2009 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
#1. Dubai Millennium: Huge 6 length Dubai World Cup win in what certainly would have earned a Beyer figure in the 122 to 127 range. All 9 career wins coming by 2.5 lengths or more .. the excellent Slickly closest to him in victory. Only career defeat came at 12fs in the English Derby.

#2. Swain: Might be unpopular to rate so high considering he never actually won on dirt. In two dirt tries, he was 2nd beaten a nose to Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup and 3rd beaten a length to Awesome Again and Silver Charm in the greatest Breeders Cup Classic field ever.

However, he came away from both defeats as the no doubt about it best horse on that day. In the Dubai World Cup, he had to overcome making his first start off an almost 6 month layoff at 10fs. In the Breeders Cup Classic, Dettori took him to the outside fence out of fear of making eye contact with Silver Charm. An all-time dumb ride.

Won 10 of 20 on turf and ITM in 18 of 20 including races like the Arc and BC Turf. Was 3rd to Lammtarra in the Arc as an undefeated 3yo .. made final career start in BC Classic at age 6.

#3. Singspeil: Won only career dirt start in the Dubai World Cup by just over a length while making his first start off a layoff. The 2nd place finisher Siphon won the Santa Anita Handicap by 3 lengths in his previous start with a 120 Beyer. After the loss to Singspeil - Siphon returned to America and ran Beyers of 115 and 117 in his next two starts.

Final 7 starts of Singspeil's career: Win in the Canadian International over Chief Bearhardt. 2nd in the Breeders Cup Turf. Win in the Japan Cup. Win in the Dubai World Cup. Win in the Group 1 Coronation. 4th in the King George and QE in a race won by Swain. And win in the Juddmonte International.

#4. Candy Ride: Perfect 6-for-6. Multiple Group 1 winner on turf in South America. Both wins coming by 8 lengths. In his 3rd start, he took a Group 1 getting a mile in 1:31 flat and destroying a 15 horse field.

Won his only US turf race in the American Handicap. The horse who finished 2nd came back 3 weeks later to win the Grade 1 Eddie Reed by 5 lengths. CR finished his career with a 123 Beyer thumping of Medaglia D'Oro in a race where MDO was basically allowed to make his own pace - and was just overpowered by CR on the far turn.


#5. Giant's Causeway: Won 5 straight Group 1's on turf in Europe as a 3yo. Close 2nd to Tiznow in the BC Classic in his only dirt start.

Gets slight edge over Arc winner Sakhee because I believe Tiznow was a better horse late at age 3 than he was at age 4 and Sakhee was taken to the woodshed by Street Cry in the DWC.


All of these horses started off in a different country. If you elimanted foreign horses ... you'd have a pretty sad collection. You'd almost be left talking about Hollywood Wildcat and her son War Chant. If you did a top 20, I think at least 16 or 17 would have started off in a different country.

Heck, if Horse Chestnut steals the 20 spot, Africa may have as many horses on there as the United States.

I think I remember some 1970ish Triple Crown winner.. I think he was pretty fn good on grass also.. I just cant remember his name? He won a grass race when smoke appeared from his nose, he won a dirt race and smoke came for his feet. He would have eaten this top 5 for lunch on dirt, grass or a tarmac..

Bigsmc 10-21-2009 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
I think I remember some 1970ish Triple Crown winner.. I think he was pretty fn good on grass also.. I just cant remember his name? He won a grass race when smoke appeared from his nose, he won a dirt race and smoke came for his feet. He would have eaten this top 5 for lunch on dirt, grass or a tarmac..
We all remember him Freddy, but last I checked 1973 was 36 years ago.

freddymo 10-21-2009 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsmc
We all remember him Freddy, but last I checked 1973 was 36 years ago.
That is a technicalty ..lol

Indian Charlie 10-22-2009 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend
Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?

DaTruth 10-22-2009 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?
In Excess?

RolloTomasi 10-22-2009 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaTruth
In Excess?
Yep.

For those interested in what Jovial could do on turf, see the 1990 Cinema.

Hawkster was a Grade 1 winner on dirt at 2, placed in Strub at 4.

Bien Bien won the Swaps at 3, placed in the Big Cap later on.

RolloTomasi 10-22-2009 08:14 AM
Marquetry, Tranquillity Lake

The Indomitable DrugS 10-22-2009 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend
I'd say from those horses ... only Geri has a shot at making a top 20.

Olympio is a horse I didn't think of - and one I'm not comfortable rating. He'd be 2nd most likely imo.

Bien Bien was just 1-for-8 on dirt ... and his Swaps win only got a 102 Beyer.

Hawkster did race in '90 - but was 0-for-5 with some bad races. I have him missing the date cutoff.

Jovial was downright terrible in most of his turf races. Multiple last place finishes in alw races.

Opening Verse wasn't much of a dirt horse from what little I remember.

CSC 10-22-2009 08:47 AM
If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

The Indomitable DrugS 10-22-2009 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.
He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

CSC 10-22-2009 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.
Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

The Indomitable DrugS 10-22-2009 09:25 AM
There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

King Glorious 10-22-2009 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.
But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.

The Indomitable DrugS 10-22-2009 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.
He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...




it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.

King Glorious 10-22-2009 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.
No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.

King Glorious 10-22-2009 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...




it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.
I wasn't comparing him to any horse. Only pointing out a 2yo that did get serious consideration for HOY.

CSC 10-22-2009 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.
I think the big change for Skip Away was he finally got a decent jock on him when Bailey got aboard later in his career, he was ridden more forwardly after Sellers and Santos were jettisoned and it certainly elevated his stature. He was definitely a better horse towards the latter part of his career than earlier when he was soundly beaten by Formal Gold on more than one occasion. The competition argument regarding Cigar is a valid and who knows how it would have panned out had Holy Bull not have been hurt (where we only have half a race to gauge that), I don't hold that against him but I can understand why people would point that out, it's nothing new.

CSC 10-22-2009 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.
Personal Ensign was a rarity though I wish she had raced more than the 13 times she did, Serena's Song lost it abit towards the end of her career and was kept around for the earnings record by Lewis/Lukas. Easy Goer was less effective at 4 and though he was a pretty good horse, I am not sure I would put him up there with the elite of all time.

The Indomitable DrugS 10-22-2009 10:31 AM
I don't think the jocks mattered much ... Skip Away beat Cigar going a classic distance as a 3yo with Sellers on him.

I don't think Skip Away got better near the end ... I just think the epic talent level of the competition he was facing wore down before he did. Formal Gold and Will's Way both retired at supreme levels. Gentlemen was starting to decline. It was bacially a cause and effect.

When sharp horses like this get out of the way ....




You finally saw the long win streak and the sillyness about Skip Away's inability to win more than half of his races was put to rest.

Travis Stone 10-22-2009 10:47 AM
Look at those Beyers... it's been a long time since we saw a lot of those.

King Glorious 10-22-2009 10:48 AM
Just thinking again about the kind or orgasms people would be having on forum board today if these kinds of horses were still around. Instead, we get to debate the merits of the Macho Agains and Past the Points and Einsteins of the world. Decent horses to be sure but ones that should never be considered top horses. Hell, even the Curlins and Big Browns don't compare.

slotdirt 10-22-2009 10:52 AM
I still say Formal Gold was better than Skip Away.

Gander 10-22-2009 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Stone
Look at those Beyers... it's been a long time since we saw a lot of those.
Especially 3 in a row.

Formal Gold = Much better than Ghsozapper

CSC 10-22-2009 10:58 AM
For comparsion's sake let's see Cigar's past p's during his streak. I'm sure it will illustrate he was on top of his game longer than than SA or FG.

Travis Stone 10-22-2009 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gander
Formal Gold = Much better than Ghsozapper
That might be stretching it a bit... Ghostzapper hit/miss in terms of starts, but rarely did he not put forth a giant effort. But on dope alone, they're similar for sure.

KirisClown 10-22-2009 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
For comparsion's sake let's see Cigar's past p's during his streak. I'm sure it will illustrate he was on top of his game longer than than SA or FG.

Indian Charlie 10-22-2009 12:55 PM
ugh.

I bet him in about 10 of his 14 losses.

I at least did hit Dare and Go though!

CSC 10-22-2009 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
Thanks KirisClown, I gotta learn how you guys to do that.

robfla 10-22-2009 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
Thanks KirisClown, I gotta learn how you guys to do that.

scan to jpg from the book "champions", upload to photobucket, post on forum. Not rocket science.

CSC 10-22-2009 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
scan to jpg from the book "champions", upload to photobucket, post on forum. Not rocket science.
I was close, I converted an adobe file of his past p's to a jpeg but it was too large to post here. Photobucket I never heard of until now, I got it, Thx.

Indian Charlie 10-22-2009 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSC
I was close, I converted an adobe file of his past p's to a jpeg but it was too large to post here. Photobucket I never heard of until now, I got it, Thx.
Download IrfanView. A free image viewer editor. Resize the photo using the resample setting, and voila!

Smaller picture, smaller file, minimal loss of quality.

You should also use the .gif file format instead of jpg for things like drf pps.

CSC 10-22-2009 01:46 PM
Thanks for the info guys!

CSC 10-22-2009 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
2 days short of 2 full calendar years on top of his game. 20 races in that timespan with a record of 17-2-1. Whoever said it earlier is 100% correct, people would be all over themselves on this board today if we had a horse like this, it would dwarf what Rachel has done in her 2/3rds of a year campaign.


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