thats strange to me too Bill. He has shown that a little in his last couple races. Im trying to think back to last years races, but I swear I don't recall him being unwilling to settle like that.

Brings me to a question. English Channel and Ramzautti are owned by 2 different people so how can Pletcher sacrifice Ramazutti as a rabbit to benefit English Channel, a horse owned by somebody else? Why would the owner of Ramazutti wanna fry his horse so Pletcher and the other owner of Eng Channel can put cash in their pockets? Or do they work up some sort of deal and split the purse?

Its why I like to bet speed in turf races. If your horse is good enough he/she wins. Never has excuses like the other ones who depend on trips.

Man I ready to give up on this thread. Guys, he was being held off a pace that was slower than he works in the morning under wraps and you wanna know why he wouldnt settle? Man, I give up.

Mike...he always was a little rank in the United Nations too and the pace there was not that slow. I understand him being rank on Sat....with that pace...yes. But he was rank in the UN when they went :47 and 1:11...

You don't need to "give up".....we aren't idiots and don't need to be talked down to.

If you don't understand why a horse who is being held hard off a 1:15 pace wouldnt settle you arent members of mensa either!!:)

I DO UNDERSTAND why he was being held hard on Saturday. I mean sh*t...youd have to hold me hard from wanting to run that slow....its the UN race that has me confused. I even mentioned it to Randall that day because we watched it together at Colonial Downs.

Unless we have a time machine, we arent going back to Sat for this race. Why dont we focus on today's races so we can all earn enough money to buy our ladies some BBQ chicken and ice cream. Okay?

F that....I got a big ass bag of M&M's heading to my house to have as I watch the races this afternoon..

GREAT card today at Toga:rolleyes:

The Tin Man outfoxed the field. He should be #1 or 2 on the turf now.

As far as the PC, I'm a fan of Papi Chullo and I hope he wins. I'm not saying bet him.

Oracle, you and I either agree with each other 100% of we are way way off. On this one I agree with you 100%. No horse is going to settle down and relax when they are running that slow. The dont even train that slow. And even if someone moved their horse in front of The Tin Man, The Tin Man would have grabbed the lead right back and then your horse and The Tin Man would have been fried. The race was void of speed and The Tin Man and Espinosa played it perfectly. Nothing that any horse could have done Saturday to beat The Tin Man by running their race. This race is a toss out when handicapping the races on Oct 7th.

Espinoza outfoxed the field and the other jocks let him get away with murder. I said it before...you could have put a good $75K claimer in the same spot and he would have had enough left in the tank after going that slow to hold them off. Just a brilliant job by the jock to take advantage of the others not wanting to put pressure on him.

exactly....

Okay, we get it. We have until Oct 7th to worry about these 2 running against each other again. Between today and then the 3 or 4 of us on this thread will probably wager on over 1,000 races combined. So let it go.

My wagering is done until Oct 7th. I have been so cold recently that it isnt even funny. Plus school just started and I got killed on school supplies. I had to buy a lap top for my oldest who is going to be a freshman. I looked at the required school supplies and a freaking lap top was on the list. I was like--you have to be kidding me.

This looked like an European type pace...only I don't recall so many of those so-called great turf horses coming home as fast as the Tin Man. I agree with Oracle that the slow pace doomed anyone behind The Tin Man but his final quarter was still pretty damn amazing and I think it's grossly unfair to say a claimer could have won even with that pace...again, 22 and change for the final quarter equates to "real racehorse" talent regardless of the early fractions. Obviously the course was playing fast, but saw what you will, The Tin Man demonstrated that he continues to be a threat in any race...although I suspect he'll see more rabbits from here on out than could be produced by Bugs Bunny attending a three day orgy!

Let me ask again, how Ramzutti could be used as the sacrificial lamb for English Channel when they are owned by 2 different people?

Why would the owner care to help out English Channel on Oct 7th?

a freaking Laptop...REQUIRED?!?!?! holy crap....thats...wow...

I am sure all parties involved have a deal worked out amongst the three of them.

Yes, I was pissed. It cost $499. They worked out some sort of agreement with Dell. And the financially challenged students got help from Dell and some other organizations.

I'd have to put my finacially challenged foot up the schoolboards ass...

what state do you live in?

Indiana. One teacher, I heard through the Grapevine, teaches from his lap top. He is able to write on it and all sorts of crap. I swear, what is wrong with chalk and chalkboards. The highlight of my day was being able to wash the chalkboard.

Boggles my mind that something that expensive can be a required item.

I remember my parents being pissed that they had to get me a graphic calculator.

What's a calculator? Paper and pencil was all I knew back in the stone age.

Speaking of Surf Cat, where is Borrego? Is he retired?

Invasor has 3 G1s. I wouldn't throw him out of the race for HOY

Good point. He is wins his next two he is HOY. What makes me mad is that Showing Up can win his next two and wont even get a sniff at HOY.

Showing Up could win HOY if he were to run in the BC Classic and win it.

They would be nuts to return him to dirt.

Agreed. He obviously likes the turf, so he should stay there. I wonder if they'll run him in the BC Turf?

IMO, that would be a very poor bet on your part, oracle. It's as if you are ignoring the Dubai race and the rest of TTM's resume since he came back. I would take that proposition even with a sacrificial rabbit in the race. For that matter, I would have taken the Tin Man side of that proposition even before the Arlington Million.

I'm not saying he is clearly better than either EC or Cacique. (Though I suspect he is every bit as good as either) But I would definitely take him to finish ahead of at least one of them if all 3 meet in the BC Turf or other upcoming race.

--Dunbar

Numbers 3-5 on this list are hilarious. It's hard to pick which one is the most funny.

I will repeat what's already been said...this race is & was a complete toss. Anyone who gives The Tin Man too much credit (see #5) or takes too much away from the others (see #3/4) has a very short memory of this sport. I hope to God this Tin Man bandwagon continues to the Breeder's Cup...it will give the rest of us better odds.

Watch the replay & enjoy...but when it comes to handicapping, put a line through this race!

Sons of Affirmed do not like to get caught.

Seems everybody has forgotten about Aragorn, although i still think he could lose the BC Mile b/c not certain that he's as good on non firm ground that he'll likely get at Churchill in November. Also, I think Lava Man loses this weekend and is a quality play against at 3-5 or however low he'll be, too whom? not sure, havent looked at the race, but possibly Good Reward or Magnum off the top of my head.