lava is great i hope he does well....

Of course it will be nice for him to come back anywhere close to good form. That isn't at issue. That will be swell. The problematic aspect about this is that a member of the ownership group knowingly obfuscated the plans for Lava Man and dealt in bad faith for close to a year with the facility where he was going to be retired. He wasn't going to grow old and fat in some godforsaken field... He was going to a retirement farm where the public could enjoy him and interact with him.

If Kenly was going to try stem cell therapy to see how the horse reacted and if his career could be extended, he should have made that clear from the start or whatever point he initiated the treatments. And then it should have been announced that they were going to attempt to bring Lava Man back via the therapy. Instead, they raised expectations that he was going to be coming to Old Friends and gave the racing public a certain message. And now the message has changed. And it's a bad message with potentially embarrassing and damaging consequences.

In an environment where the industry is under a microscope, to use a high profile horse like Lava Man as a guinea pig is a bad idea under the specific circumstances we're looking at... And if people don't understand the whys and wherefores of that, they haven't been paying attention to the climate around the game.

He's a thoroughbred, of course he's excited to be back out running again, but that doesn't mean racing should be the only option in my opinion. Clearly the years of racing have taken a toll on him. Just because a horse wants to do something doesn't mean it is right for them...as anyone who has ridden a thoroughbred will atest, they don't exactly do what's best for them.

O'Neil was saying Lava Man was working very well before the retirement - but he was running like a horse who lost interest..did anyone really enjoy watching that?

Everyone loves a comeback story, but personally I just wouldn't fool around with a horse who has already written a fairy tale like story in the history books.

The issue for me is Lava Man is 8 years old!!! This isn't a 3 or 4 year old with maturity aiding the healing process, the notion that his ankles look like a 3 year olds are complete bullshit!!, unless of course they were comparing him to a 3 year old with cantalope sized ankles, this endeavor reeks of nothing but missing the spotlight and or the money, nothing else!!

So am I to believe that it's standard procedure in racing that once plans are made and announced, they might as well be written in stone and taken as true fact all the time? Didn't Tim Ritchie tell us all summer that Afleet Alex was coming back and that he was 99% healthy......only to retire him without racing again? Weren't we told that Quality Road's issues were minor and would only keep him out a couple of days of training..........only to have him miss the Derby and the next several months of racing? Wasn't Azeri done racing.....only to be winning grade one races the next year with another trainer? Plans and intentions one day can change and it doesn't have to mean the people were being liars the whole time.

Why is Lava Man more at risk than Jambalaya? Or Brass Hat? Or Da Hoss? Or any other horse out there racing? If they bring him back and the horse finishes last a couple of times, is he going to be laying in his stall crying and feeling embarrassed and thinking "damn, there goes my legacy"? That legacy and memory stuff is for the human fans. The horse couldn't care less about it. Seeing him perform below his old standards would bother his fans and they don't want to see it. People always talk about doing what's right for the horse. If they really want to do that, they would never saddle them up, pump them full of drugs, put a little man on their back, and make them race. And for good measure, when they are out there trying hard and they get tires, they get whipped. People need to quit being naive. Probably 90-95% of the time, people are doing what's best for them. If it's good for the horse too, that's just an added bonus. Saying that, the owners/trainer of Lava Man are more than likely doing what's best for them. But that doesn't automatically mean that what they are doing is hurting Lava Man.

I'm completely with Riot, freddymo, and KG on this. I wish Lava Man the best and, in this case, wish O'Neill the best. O'Neill has nothing to gain monetarily, and much more to lose than gain reputation-wise.

It would look so bad for O'Neill and the owners should anything bad happen, that they will be looking for ANY sign that he shouldn't go forward. Because of that, I don't think there's much chance Lava Man will actually race, but I still applaud the effort. If Lava Man ever does start again, we can rest assured that he will have been thoroughly checked out before hand.

--Dunbar

It's deplorable because of the age of this horse, I hate that old bullshit line that he was unhappy retired, well guess what he was also probably unhappy when he was brought in from pasture and put into a stall to train as well, they learn to adapt, and if he truly does hate the life of leisure than I'm positive there would be a 10 mile line of people willing to ride this horse on the trails in a nice stable ( including me). This horse, of ANY horse has done enough for his connections to warrant a safe retirement, the fact they would even risk a catastrophic injury says all I need to know about them, and he's at risk everytime he steps on the track, I know every other horse in the world does as well, but this is LAVA MAN, he is a track hero and should be treated as such, horses are totally dependent on us to do the right thing, they have no choice and will do as we ask of them, I have no doubt LM has the heart and desire to run, but he definately does not have the physical ability to match, do we really need to see a futile effort from a once champion horse that just can't compete anymore or worse? If anyone thinks the motive is anything but self-serving greed than your naive. It's a travesty to this horse, plain and simple.

Of course that's true, it can happen. Do you have any evidence or indication that was the case with the filly in question?

I doubt it is your position that horses should never be healed, rehabbed and brought back into training after any injury - or is it?

I agree you have a very valid point with the above. That's pretty low.

But now the public can enjoy Lava Man on the track. Old Friends is 15 minutes away from where I live. I personally will be happier to see Lava Man on the TV screen, racing (if he does get back to that - it may not yet happen) than to make a monthly visit to watch him graze in a pasture.

[quote=LARHAGE]The issue for me is Lava Man is 8 years old!!! This isn't a 3 or 4 year old with maturity aiding the healing process, the notion that his ankles look like a 3 year olds are complete bullshit!!,QUOTE]

No, stem cell therapy aided the healing process.

Age? Seriously? Ever heard of Better Talk Now? The Tin Man? The only reason you are against this is because you don't want to see him losing races.

he's eight-not exactly one foot in the grave. eight year olds are perfectly capable of racing at that age, as well as beyond that age.

as for it being a travesty, the horse has no idea what the conditions of a race are-he won't know if it's a graded race or an allowance.

Just throwing it out there, but that vet has a lot to gain if this is successful..

[quote=Riot]
Stem cell therapy can not fix the fact this horse was no longer competitive.

No far worse, I don't want to see him lose his life.

So what's the excuse when a 2yo loses his life? Can't be age. How do you even watch this sport?

sure he does--and risks endless vilification if it all goes wrong.

every horse risks doing just that every time they step foot on the track.

Or the breeding farm (Saint Liam, age 6) or the retirement home (Kona Gold, age 15), to mention two painful reminders.

--Dunbar

Yes, it can.

And it apparently did.

exactly-there's no guarantees for them, just like for us. saint liam was off to a life of relative leisure, as was kona gold. how many broodmares each year that are lost....it's just like life for everyone else-highs, lows and everything in between.
i just find it odd that so often people complain when a horse retires at three, but a few years later they're way too old? eight is relatively young for a horse. how many of john henry's performances would we not have had he quit at eight?

Not that much (other than a big name horse in his hands, but he's had plenty of those already). Plenty of vets in large and small animal doing stem cell and/or IRAP.

For grins, the following numbers of horses (by age) are in today:

Arlington Park: (three-year-old and up):
Age 3 - 14
4 - 17
5 - 12
6 - 2
7 - 2

Belmont Park: (three-year-old and up):
Age 3 - 19
4 - 16
5 - 14
6 - 6
7 - 2
8 - 2

Australia "A: (steeplechase):
Age 5 - 1
6 - 1
8 - 4
9 - 1
10 - 1

Australia "A": (hurdle):
Age 5 - 1
6 - 1
7 - 1
8 - 1
9 - 1

Australia "A": (flat turf, handicap and open) keep in mind a horse there called "four" is three-years-old here, due to inversed season difference:
Age 3 - 1
4 - 17
5 - 25
6 - 11
7 - 10
8 - 7
9 - 2
10 - 1
11 - 1

I think the point that many seem to be missing here is that Lava Man was once a big name horse who was scheduled to be sent to a retirement home after having hit hard times on the track. The fact that an unusual amount of vet work was done on a horse scheduled to be retired raises flags as does the announcement of his relocation to a high profile KY retirement home and the 180 degree reversal. If he were to breakdown can you imagine how this would look? Obviously O"Neil does by not taking his % (a preemptive move). Sure horses can compete at an advanced age. Sure horses can recover from injuries. Sure the advances in science are great. But how can this be a positive except for the long, long shot that he is able to compete at the "higest levels"? Almost anyway you look at it this will be seen as greedy people trying to squeeze a few more pennies out of a cash cow.

And they may be right.

Wasn't Lava Man, during the height of his success, compared to both John Henry and Seabiscuit? Perhaps his connections are trying to further the somewhat forced fantasy (doesn't this horse have his own DVD?) by emulating those champions.

Seabiscuit, as most know, suffered a major injury as a 5yo but returned after more than a year layoff to win the Santa Anita Handicap at age 7.

John Henry, who raced in top class company at age 9 before retiring with an injury, was actually put back into training at age 11 (though the comeback was ultimately aborted).

As far as I can tell, Lava Man was retired because of declining form, not because of an acute, major injury. Recent aged comebacker Perfect Drift had much more distinct problems and made a decent (3rd to BC winner Albertus Maximus), albeit brief, comeback.

While coming back in top class company may be a bit of stretch, if he can be as modestly successful as fellow Cal-breds Best Pal and Cavonnier, it would be a good story.

:tro:

Not by me. But if you feel that way, fine.

A snippet from the good article 'Zig posted:

Uhm he a gelding who can certainly earn. If the horse can return to 85% of what he was he would be 95% better then the dog crap that is currently racing. Question... Imagine you trained a 4 mil earner who had ankles issues...You see those ankles better then the day you got this gelding.. Are you taking a shot he can beat the dog biscuits without heart or speed he would have to face? Now toss in a a 48 work that eclipsed his best work at 6?

Give me a break. This isnt some non-descript 8 year old and I am not some bleeding heart. But if I was writing a script on an anti-horse racing story, this would be about the perfect scenario to have presented to me. IF he were to have an untimely end on a racetrack, please tell me that this wouldnt look horrific? An old gelding, retired and so far gone that a retirement home is already booked and publicly announced, is suddenly put back in training and winds up dead on the track. Yeah try to spin that one positive. The difference between this horse and others like John Henry was that JH was never retired and brought back. The difference between this horse and Brett Favre is that Favre wont get hurt bad enough to have to be put down (no matter how hard Scavs roots for this). The difference is that this horse was the centerpiece of the 2007 Breeders Cup Marketing blitz (Lava Man vs Bernardini) yet is still competing in late 2009/2010 despite not having won an important race since June of 2007. The difference is that he didnt exactly go out on top and is coming back to clean up some unfinished business. The difference is that he still has 9 year old bones and he tries hard, very hard. The difference is the last time these connections "unretired" a horse, she was soon dead. There is almost no upside to this story but there is a whole lot of downside. And no, that isnt my opinion or feeling, it is the reality that we now live with in horse racing.

I dont believe in miracles and fountains of youth. Your grandmother could earn too if you sent her to a sweatshop instead of the retirement home. Doesnt mean you do it.

from the most recent bloodhorse, got it today...


s j stables 9 year old gelding cloudy's knight felt no effects of a more than one year layoff as he took over in upper stretch and cruised to a comfortable win in the 150k ky cup turf.

this horse won three graded races in '07 including a gr 1. went 0-4 last year, then suffered a tendon injury while finishing eighth last september.

Final 10 Cal dirt races of Lava Man's career:

* Santa Anita Handicap win

* Goodwood win

* Pacific Classic win

* Hollywood Gold Cup win

* Santa Anita Handicap Win

* $1,000,000 Sunshine Millions Classic Win

* 3rd beaten less than a length in Pacific Classic. Won brutal speed duel and was vanned off.

* 120 Beyer Hollywood Gold Cup win

* Gr 2 Californian win

* 100K alw oct clm win when he was entered for the tag

That's 9-for-10 with one heroic defeat.


only 3 synthetic track tries:

* won the Hollywood Gold Cup by a nose over A. P. Xcellent

* 6th beaten 7 lengths to Student Council in the Pac Classic

* 6th beaten 2.5 in the Cal Cup

No, it is your reality. Please put me in the "this is good" camp. Some of this anti-O'Neill stuff seems libelous to me and I'm glad he has the balls to answer the questions of people he surely does not have to give the time of day.

I am sure the owners want to earn. I never thought it wasn't about money. More importantly, if they can race the horse sound there is abosultely nothing wrong with racing the gelding if he returns to his better days. So Brass Hat shouldn't run because he is only 90% of what he was?
So if you were in Oneil shoes you would not train Lava Man? I certainly would..He is a horse and IF he is souind WTF.. As for the mare, it happens every single day at some track, training ground or paddock. Horses get killed for every stupid reason in the book. The fact that their mare was a victim may or may not be related. I would assume she would have been a fairly valueable broody so I guess they f'd up royally and would have possibly be even more cautious with Lava Man.
This really is a lot to do about nothing if Lava Man is sound and returns 90% of what he was. I never thought the horse was anything but a juiced game SOB anyway, so I could really give a darn , but geez who really cares if they think he will be seviceable again? Is Funnycide coming back?lol

this, on the other hand, is a 'comeback' worthy of scorn:

http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid...month=9&day=23

If anything could bring back Serling, this would probably be the one.

No it isnt my reality. Have you been living under a rock? Your reading comprehension skills rival Riots. That is not a complement.

Precious stuff

There are likely two things at play here.

First, the owners like being in the spotlight with a great horse and miss it.

Second, the owners like money.


I would guess 90% of the critics are not much different than the owners and are basically hypocrits who would do the same thing if they had the horse.