he can't enter the distaff!

Well a win over It's a Bird who I might add will be the wiseguy choice fresh off the Wolfson 'Icon affect' or plugger Macho Again who would be hard pressed to beat 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird is certainly better than a win over Quality Road or 'I need the universe and stars to align' Mine That Bird. What's wrong with Dunkirk? I remember during this years Derby many of the Beyer disciples were picking him. We know they are rarely wrong...

You have the biggest hard on for this filly. She has beat the Ky Derby winner, Travers winner, Belmont winner, Ark winner, etc etc.. Add the Woodward, and put in context winning the Preakness short, switching barns coming off a huge G1 20 length score. Do you really think she wouldn't have slaughtered Summer Bird in the Travers? I really like Summer Bird and he is a very nice G1 colt but he can't get within 5 or 6 lengths of her. Rachel is getting better we haven't seen the bottom. A Woodward win secures Horse of the Year period.. If she loses the Woodward and Summer Bird wins JCGC and Classic (he won't) then SB has a claim if Rachel doesn't beat Zenyatta in the Beldame or wins Beldame and decides to crush in the Disstaff..

Is she coming? Or are you speculating.

I don't have any reason to believe she will come . TVG is brilliant for talking up this whopdie doo 400K purse increase. Like the Moss's are going to be influenced by the opportunity to win 240k more. BUT good ole TVG has gotten a huge amoint of mileage out of the offer..

Based on what?...Summer Bird has no beyers showing for synthetic tracks....

:tro: :tro:

Oh I thought you may have heard something that was not reported, I would be very surprised if Zenyatta steps out of California this year though money is never a bad motivator, so who knows..

And so does Rachel Alexandra, but atleast he is going to be put in a position to possibly fail, to me that is far more admiral than not trying at all. Everyone keeps assuming RA will not be good on pro ride, the fact is no one knows for sure and here we are with the biggest star in the game absent on the biggest day of racing.

I see no reason to believe RA will sux on Pro Ride. DrugS seems to think that she will be slaughtered on it but that is based on her trainers lack of success and not RA. Jess wants to make a statement and he wants to use his prize to make it.. At this point I could careless eitherway. Once she wins the Woodward and Beldame ,with or without, Zenyatta she will have stamped her ticket. Assuming she wins both those two races she will be forever known as one of the very best race horses to ever run. This is not to say she is the greatest of all time or even the very best filly, just one of a select group of animals that depict the best the breed has to offer.

You bring up a good point of discussion, since the inception of the BC, has there ever been a horse considered great without running in it? Even if they didn't win.

I think if you go back and watch the Preakness replay (DRF posted it and her other big wins) you can understand why these other horses simply arent in her class. Save Zenyatta who desires a shot to beat Rachel none of theses other Colts or Horses are fast enough. Maybe this Icon Project emerges as serious competition.


Zarkava never ran in it..I think we all know she was friggin great. Lot's of Euro's have passed on the BC. Who needs to win the BC turf when you have the Arc? Plus you have all the laimo's that got retired in advance of the BCC.

"Great" is open to interpretation, but Mineshaft got HOY without running in the BC.

Ooh- fun trivia you pose, actually. Were there any other HOY who didn't run in the BC?

Clearly I need to get a life and off the internet... Google is the greatest time waster known to mankind:

HOY who didn't run in the Breeders Cup:
John Henry
Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given
Mineshaft

On this, we agree. Some people want to play both sides of the fence, on one hand talking about how bad this group of older horses is but then on the other side giving her extra credit for taking them on. I know I'm a broken recordon this but what should be looked at is the level of competition and not the age or sex. Facing the boys or facing older doesn't automatically mean it's a harder assignment. Say the Breeders' Cup was being run on dirt at Churchill this year. As much as we've been clamoring for Zenyatta to face males and run in the Classic, if Jackson were to put Rachel in the Distaff, wouldn't that be the bigger challenge for Zenyatta to take on and not the males in the Classic?

While this is the toughest field and deepest one she's faced, let's not go overboard and call it a tough challenge. Sure, any horse can lose any race but going in, she's by far the best horse and any loss would be considered a huge upset. Since when is it considered such a huge obstacle to overcome a field in which you are 1-2 on the morning line?

Well I can only speak for myself in the portion of the conversation we're having together -- but Dunkirk always reeked of an overhyped NW2X horse...and has basically proven to be such...just one who is bred well enough to get 2nd in the least meaningful of the Triple Crown races.

So basically, everything is wrong with Dunkirk. He's not as good as everyone pretended he was. Bird beating him means as little as Quality Road beating him, something I pointed out ad nauseum elsewhere before the Travers. Beating Dunkirk is not a claim to fame, even if you do it in a Grade I race.

no one said they thought she would be bad on it. jackson doesn't like the stuff, and doesn't like how horses go over it. he may also not like how his trainer does regarding the stuff....:D

declan's moon got top 2 yo without running there.

not necessarily. if sea the stars was to come, i think zenyatta would have a hard time. also, a full field might pose problems due to her running style. rail trip might even be too much. but the classic point is most likely moot, as i don't see zenyatta going vs the males.

besides, the surface is a question for rachel. i think that's why everyone wants a matchup on dirt, since both have proven ability on the real thing.

This is good work, I would only call 2 of those on the list great, 1 horse could have been but I am convinced his quizzable premature retirement left a big question mark on how history would judge him.

Well stated.

I agree with you for the most about Dunkirk though maybe I will give him the benefit of the doubt he has had health issues, I was also poking fun with the beyer disciple remark, it seems when greatness is discussed beyers always enter the equation, so when Summer Bird beats 2 horses that have beyered very generously in QR and Dunkirk some say he hasn't beaten anything worthwhile. Hypocrisy or not?

What's so bad about it if your horse can run over it and she comes home safe. Unless you are worried. ;)

Not a bad dig -- just not a good one for me :D since I've never used Beyers to justify Rachel and have maintained that Dunkirk wasn't much (though with the caveat that you mentioned) compared to what lots thought...and that therefore Quality Road wasn't what people were saying because beating Dunkirk on a souped up racetrack didn't impress me a whole lot.

if jackson ran a lot of his horses over the stuff, but didn't send rachel you might have to wonder. i can't think of the last time he ran one over poly, can you? other than curlin against his better judgement that is.

Coach,

You get my vote for Avatar of the decade.

That's not what I said. I said if the Classic were at Churchill on the dirt this year and Rachel was running, then it would be a tougher matchup for Zenyatta to run in the Distaff than in the Classic against the American older males. I was using that to point out how it's not always such a big deal facing males and sometimes staying in your own division can be tougher. People are going overboard with all this hype about Rachel facing older males but this race probably wouldn't be as tough as a Beldame with Zenyatta, Icon Project, and Seventh Street in it.

No I dont have a hard on for the filly in any way. While I admit that Jackson is not a favorite the logic of saying that a Belmont, Travers, Gold Cup and BC Classic winner isnt a horse of the year contender over a Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, Woodward winner is unusual.

Switching barns has no bearing on the award and you thinking we havent seen her bottom doesnt either. While Beyers are not an end all the thought that she would have whipped a horse that just won a grade 1 easily with a 110 beyer is laughable. If you read through my scenario you would have not seen any RA running in any races after the Woodward (which absolutely wont happen if she were to lose or even win in a less than impressive manner. Lori was saying that RA had the thing wrapped up regardless. I dont think that is true.

Name three horses other than Curlin, RA and Kensai that Jackson owns.

Everyone was hurt, no one chose to not go.

dashing debby, stonestreet song, omniscient.

Jackson stalker

lol

i had to search on bloodhorse, the only one that came to mind was dashing debby.

Holy Bull wasn't hurt and I'll never believe Mineshaft was either.

Mineshaft was hurt. I saw the xrays. And Holy Bull was hurt.

Did he injure himself in the JCGC?

I remember Point Given had a suspensionary injury or something like that, at the time I was very suspicious he was retired so abruptly following his Travers win and they didn't even entertain the thought of bringing him back. The public was probably robbed a chance to see him perform against older horses. Beating up on the likes of Dollar Bill & AP Valentine didn't impress me as much as others. This one smelled....

You can see x-rays of any horse and see something. Mineshaft wasn't hurt. His owner had no intention of sending him to the BC. How is it that you can say you horse's last race will be the JCGC and then after that, say you want to go to the BC but then you come up with an injury that you say was actually there before the BC? Just like Frankel with Sightseek in 2004.

He was a good horse but I would never call him great.