You are very welcome. Also, there has been a slight decline in vet bills. Ours have declined about 12%.

Dragging up a name from the past that Nostradamus used to use as my screenname.

I don't like poly because I do not think breathing in all that stuff can be good for jockeys or animals.

Churchill is not going Polytrack. The Cali tracks will, Woodbine is, Kee and TP are and probably Arlington in the future. But don't look for Churchill to change.

Would it shock you if I told you that(strictly hearsay so Euro doesn't freak out) that some folks up here I know have said that a couple of prominent trainers out west are already making plans to run the bulk of their horses in Kentucky and NY and Gulfstream after the switch is made out in Cali? Noone with Derby dreams or grade one aspirations is going to want to prep for the Roses out there, and with good reason.
Good friend of mine is a retired trainer, now a clocker and manager of a few small stables. He trained for 33 years and told me last week when we were discussing breakdowns that in 33 years he had 3 horses break down and die on the track. He said that after each one he wanted to quite the game, said he never did anything in his life to hurt a horse. He told me emphatically that the reasons for the breakdowns are not the surfaces, but the trainers who now run horses back so quickly and often and the new vet techniques that allow a horse to run who should be laid up. Said all the hyuralonic acid and cortisone they use in joints as well as other medications are allowing horses to run who should never get by the vet but because they need to fill cards that noone disallows it. He also said in his unique Maryland accent "son if they go to that stuff it will change the whole breed around and screw up the whole breeding market and you tell me whose gonna pay all this money for horses when they aint worth nothing when they are done with the track". This guy is a unique racetrack character but did train a lot stakes winners and even had grade one winners. EPBurns knows this guy very well. He also pointed out that the guys pushing this stuff were all european and he said "**** son, them guys been trying to come over and beat us for years and they never could figure the **** out how to put the speed in em that we do and get em to stretch, they can't do it! All those ****ing guys wanna do is make it so horses without speed can just keep galloping along and win races."
Now you can tell me I don't know what I am talking about and you may be right, I am not a trainer, I don't know. But I can tell you that the trainers I know and have asked all dislike the stuff to a man, not one yet has told me they wanna race on it.

Trainers like poly, gamblers (especially sheet users) are the ones that don't like it. They think it will make it too easy for everyone to handicap. That is really what is going on here. You don't need to be Nostradamus to see that. LOL.

The Polytrack people should pay you for your endorsement. Do you ever stop?

yeah oracle, its a very sad thing for california as you know who already has a horse shortage issue........ i heard darrel veinna last week saying why dont we " just make a softer deeper dirt track " rather than going off the deep end with this rbber stuff.......apparently they dont even know how it will react to the california climate:( :(

There is no way plastic can be safer for horses than dirt. No way. And for as long as they try putting this junk on racetracks, they will tell you the problem with kick-back is "being worked on."

It's all about short-sightedness. Saving one or two days of racing when all good sense says it's too cold or frozen to race. Does it really matter if Turfway runs that Tuesday night card in late November?

Well I'd like you to find me the guys who wanna race on it. Sure the gyp trainers and guys who train cheap horses held together with bandages and a paryer wanna race on it because to them they can jam the sore horses in more often. But the dog wags the tail, the tail doesn't wag the dog. This game, whether anyone likes it or not(and most don't) is predicated on the performance and success of the breeders and the breeding market. Noone can doubt that. WHy do you think people pay millions for horses who have virtually no chance ever of winning back that money on the track? Because they can make it on the back end in the shed. You wanna see this game go bad, and I mean REAL bad? Just go ahead and cause a catastrophic disruption in the breeding market and watch the devestation trickle down. Its quite simple, a healthy breeding market attracts more owners and means more money spent on horses which means more farms who are solvent and more trainers who have horses to train. You go and make 300-500 grand sires worthless and see what happens to the rest of the business, because quite frankly the American breeding market is predicated on speed. This is a serious matter.

Stop it. Anyone in this business knows why you are bashing poly. Only the simple minded idiots that don't really know the business can't figure that out.

Sheba the phrase that Vienna used is the one I keep hearing over and over again to a man or woman. Noone understands it. But actually we do, everyone has the same answer. You are talking about 5-8 million dollar contracts being awarded here. Its not hard to imagine how grateful the companies who get the bids will be to the folks who help them get the contract. I wonder how many guys will be picking up "consultant" positions with big signing bonuses and paychecks a few months or years down the road? My guess would be many.

Umm, I really don't know what the "real reason" is that you are eluding to. I honestly don't. But I will make you an offer. Attend workouts with me some morning up here and I can ask some trainers in front of you what they think about it and you can hear it for yourself. I'm not making this stuff up as i go along.

Well please show me my agenda. I have no vested interest in the stuff either way. None. It will have no bearing on my life unless of course if you consider the fact that I love the game and it could bring the whole sire market crashing down and destroy racing. Do you honestly think people will pay 300 grand to go to AP Indy or 500 grand to go to Storm Cat if this stuff permeates the marketplace? No way in hell. Have you even considered the possible economic effects on the whole industry? How many breeders have you heard excited over this stuff? So we should tailor racing to suit the needs of the cheapest claimers who have the least residual effect on the entire marketplace? Is that an improper way to look at the picture?

Michael Dickinson stands to make millions. He owns the material. His "Tapeta" is the best surface in the world. Matz, and everyone else love it and it will likely be the surface on all racetracks by the year 2010.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horse...t-tracks_x.htm

Instead of the Polytrack used at Turfway, Fair Hill is turning to trainer Michael Dickinson, who has been manufacturing his own all-weather track surface for eight years — a concoction called Tapeta, a mix of sand, polyethylene fibers, polypropylene fibers, recycled rubber and wax.

You people crack me up with the PolyTrack debate. To address the Breeding issue. Breeding will survive and adapt. People will still buy horses to race and etc etc. The philosophy of breeding to be breed the best to the best and hope for the best and that philosophy will hold true.

2nd, not every track is going to to go to PolyTrack. Some need it and some dont.

3rd, not every trainer likes it and not every trainer hates it. Trust me, trainers will follow the money. Just like this year prep races at Turfway Park. Pletcher, Lukas, Zito, Asmussen, Brothers and Baffert all raced their horses at Turfway this year.

[quote=eurobounce]

... 2nd, not every track is going to to go to PolyTrack. Some need it and some dont. ...

QUOTE]

And how does it get determined and by who which tracks need Polytrack?

Help me out on that comment.

I wonder if Dickinson will stick his finger in the polytrack like he did to prepare Tapit for the 2004 Derby. I guess we'll find out as soon as he has another horse worthy of running in a stakes race.

Ask away. He allows us to post all we want on the computer set up for personal use as long as the work gets done and we don't post pictures of people or attack people personally and don't post on finalturn.

[quote=SentToStud]Well it will be up to each individual track to make the call. IMO Woodbine, Turfway, Aqueduct INNER TRACK or any cold weather track could benefit from a synthetic surface. Santa Anita, Churchill, Gulfstream Saratoga, Belmont do not need a synthetic surface. But it is the tracks call, not mine.

[quote=eurobounce]They all will eventually go to tarpeta for their training tracks. It is just much easier on the horse and owners love the cheaper vet bills and knowing they will get more races out of their horse.

And this affects me in what way? Last time I read he was one of those being considered in California but they chose a rival company to his and Polytrack's as well. I did read that Fair Hill installed his surface but I have not read about his company being chosen anywhere to install his surface.
Either way, who gives a ****?
My concerns are about the health of the breeding industry.

You're a clown.

A week ago you were a $2,000 a race betting, law grad with a girlfriend setting up a meeting at Saratoga which you never showed for.

Now your a file clerking flunky sharing a one-bedroom with 4 of your closest friends.

On second thought, let Votta know I'll be calling HIS boss.

[quote=Nostradamus]Oh I think every training track should go to a synthetic surface.

And mine too... we have enough problems with unsound horses being bred.

I wonder if Pillow Pants knows Listerfiend...

Are you saying that there won't be any dominant sires over polytrack or the others or are you saying that the dominant sires will be different?

Perhaps one or the other, perhaps both Ceejay, perhaps neither.
Look, this stuff itself won't even be consistent. California just chose a rival company to polytrack. Different stuff.
I don't think you get what many people fear. Even a 2-5 year interruption in the breeding market would cause chaos that would be a death blow to the breeding industry. Check out tonight's sale and look at the prices.
If you have a period of uncertainty and stallion and mare prices crash, most farms will not survive long enough to see how it shakes out. They really won't.

I believe Dickinson has patented the process of wax coating sand. Therefore, if another company wins a bid to install, Dickinson still gets paid because they all use on-site wax coating of sand. Dickinson's patented process.

Nice work,Big-O!

Thats not true. I specifically read that california chose a company from which he got squat. His patent isnt the only patent out there on how to make the varieties of stuff. Look up the article, he was only getting paid on the patent if they chose Polytrack over his own company in which case he would have gotten it all. They chose neither and went with another company.

Dickinson has the best stuff out there. It is called Tarpeta, but I believe Keeneland owns part of the company that puts down polytrack, so I doubt Tarpeta will ever see that track. Tarpeta though is likely to be used on many training tracks. One of the Belmont training tracks might get it. It is going to be very common in the future for training tracks to be synthetic and the main track dirt. This way you can train if you want on one and if you don't like it you can just work on the main track.

Speaking of dickinson when is the Rat Lobster running again? Arlington on Saturday?

I was thinking the same thing, but I managed to get through it, and he's got a pretty strong point..

You know, I would just love it if American racing switched everything to the turf. Make it easy and run on turf. You can have an inner turf and change the dirt track to an outer turf. I would love that so much.

I doubt the breeders would love that. They should try to make it a 50-50 game though. Turf racing is more exciting anyway.

You know the Breeders can adjust. They always do anyway. But turf racing is the best. Dirt racing is so boring to me.

Yeah but they run some dam cheap claimers at Turfway during the winter. How many starts do these animals have in them when they go down like a one egg pudding? People also don't realize at the ammount of horses and only god knows how many more of them have added over the years. Hell they've enven added more races per card i bet since the mid to late 80's. I hate the poly-**** myself and will bet the turf and dirt until I die.

If this has been said already, I don't know. But I stand by Cliff Guilliams quote and ask: "Where are the stats of how many were Vanned off at Turfway." A good quote might I add, and something I would like to see answered.

There's a lot Dickinson talk here.

How well has Dickinson been doing since 2000? 2001? I thought so. His boys have been training on that material at his place. I haven't seen any speed from his horses in the past. Hasn't had any. Bellamy Road? Went to Zito, then was lights out for a race.

I'm sorry, but he's not winning, and his horse are training on it.

How I see it, as a new comer to this sport

Facts

- Less horses breaking down so far, considerably less

- Less days cancelled because of track conditions

Opinion

Everything else.

Let time tell the tale. I am no expert, I don't hold a candle to the wind of most on here but I have enough sense to know that in due course if the above two trends hold water and continue at their current pace (in other words considerably less breakdowns most importanly) then what is not to like about the surface assuming it is not harmful to those working around it daily. Are some of you telling me you would rather see more breakdowns on dirt then less on Poly?

On the subject of breeding, it will take care of itself. It has no choice. It has been in evolution for hundreds of years, subject to change and will continue to evolve. So be it that a horse like With A City might steal a race because of the surface. Some will lose, some will gain.