Correct it was Springer, I should have knew that, I had him in the Illinois Derby formerly at Sportsman Park.

Sky Beauty was an exhausted filly the day that she won the Alabama. Coming off the three filly Triple Crown races at Belmont, she won that day on her class alone.

The Alabama was Sky Beauty's 5th start of the year over her 3rd different track. It was the 8th start of the year for Silverbulletday - over her 7th different track.

Silverbulletday was more exhusted when she won the race by 9 with her 115 Beyer ... thankfully her class carried her through.

When you're talking about a horse with the quality of Inside Information.. I think it would matter somewhat.. She's good enough as it is.. having to carry 7 more pounds than her for a mile has to factor in slightly..

Must have been the Hempstead then... she was awful in there and obviously no longer the same horse.

No, it just means that Silverbulletday had run a few more races. If my memory is correct, SBD was coming off a far less taxing effort prior to the Alabama (in the 8.5F Monmouth Oaks against a few hopelessly outmatched rivals). Sky Beauty was coming off a far more taxing effort in the CCA Oaks, also run at 10F, which was far from her optimal trip.

Yeah - she won that one with just a 96 Beyer.

The same 96 Beyer that Silverbulletday got in the Belmont where she set a strong pace while head and head with the Derby and Preakness winner.

... ah, the Belmont, always an easy race for a heavily raced 3yo filly to bounce right back from.

Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to a speed figure, and who's to say what helped SBD bounce back so quickly from her Belmont.

The fact is that SBD had more time between her race in the (shorter, easier) Monmouth Oaks and the Alabama than Sky Beauty did between the (longer, tougher) CCA Oaks and her Alabama.

When you have to have this much debate on whether or not a horse should be in, should that horse really be in? Shouldn't the hall of famer be for the very best of the best, not just the really good in comparison to's?

You really need to see a speed figure to know her workman like wins over an allowance horse like Future Pretense were lackluster performances?

You really need to see a speed figure to see that going head-to-head with Charismatic through wicked fractions in a 12 furlong race like the Belmont is a taxing thing for a 3yo filly?

Sky Beauty had over a month between the CCAO and Alabama - and that was back in the 90's when over a month was like too much time between starts.

Sorry but everything in racing cannot be reduced to lame excuses that horseman use to explain away subpar performance ... though I can assure you that Allen Jerkens never would say that 5 weeks wasn't enough time between races.

How laughably stupid.

Look, all I said to start this discussion was to observe that Sky Beauty was an exhausted horse the day she won the Alabama. I don't need a speed figure to tell me anything. I'm not the one quoting them like they are some sort of gospel truth. If you feel compelled to use a speed figure to justify your opinion or say that the performance was subpar, that's your prerogative. And it's fine by me. I simply thought that Sky Beauty showed a lot of heart and class when she won the Alabama. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "laughably stupid" comment in this thread was your statement that SBD was "more exhausted" in the Alabama because she had run more times over more race tracks. No reasonable person in attendance at Saratoga for either filly's Alabama (and I was there both days) would have said that Silverbulletday was more exhausted in the Alabama. Later that fall, SBD probably was exhausted, as evidenced by her dismal performance behind Beautiful Pleasure in the BC Distaff, but not at Saratoga.

Baffert himself is certainly HOF worthy imo. I wasn't always such a fan but the last two years did it for me, especially getting back to back big years from both Indian Blessing and Midnite Lute, on top of all his prior successes of course.

Nice job failing to detect my sarcasam Pedigree Ann Light.

No kidding Silverbulletday wasn't exhausted when she won the Alabama by 9 lengths with a 115 Beyer.

Actually - I'm thinking it's more like Pedigree Ann Ice instead of Pedigree Ann Light ...

she is the master of the silly spin and even she wouldn't argue that five weeks wasn't enough time between starts.

I never said Sky Beauty isn't Hall of Fame material either. However, your painfully silly explanation as to why she performed so poorly in the Alabama deserves it's own wing next to old PG 1985 quotes in the DT Hall of fame.

Am I the only one that just went looking for the DT Hall of Fame? PG 1985 was clearly exhausted when DaHoss whooped him in the great handicapping contest.

Yeah, if only he had more than five weeks to prepare for Hossy.

The issue that I have with the Hall of Fame is that it pits Open Mind, Sky Beauty and Silverbulletday against each other when they all are clearly Hall of famers regardless of what King says.

Why not put the horses and people on the ballots and vote on them. In or out. We dont need a jockey category to know that Alex Solis is a jockey. The current system allows a candidate to be compared to other candidates instead of the standard that is set by the current members ALREADY IN the Hall of Fame. And unlike other sports, a horses career is much shorter, even in the glory days where they raced more than 2 years. Add to the fact that there are both male and female horses in many different categories (turf, dirt, sprint, etc) and there are approximately 35k born a year makes it stupid to vote the same amount of people and horses in any given year.

Let's just make it a hall of good horses then. Forget making it the elite of the elite. Put Open Mind and Sky Beauty in the same sentence with Personal Ensign and Lady's Secret. Put Best Pal in the same hall with Spectacular Bid. There's virtually no difference.

The thing that your aren't getting is that they aren't all CLEARLY hall of famers. If they were, nobody on here would be debating it. If Spectacular Bid is on a ballot, do you really think anyone would say "no"? Would we really have to break out his past performances and go over his record? Would anyone need to make a convincing argument on his behalf? That's the point I'm making. You may clearly believe that all three of those mares deserve to be in. That's fine because it's all subjective anyway. But if you can't get 90% of the people to agree on it with you, then I just don't believe they should be in there.

So.....

basically they are doing this every year just for the sake of having a ceremony?? Won't they eventually run out of horses to put in the Hall of Fame if they do this every single year??

If they did that.. King Glorious would be in the hall of fame... as would Indian Charlie.

Well if you got your way the trip through the hall would be really short because there would be about 12 horses in there.

Those horses are all clearly hall of famers based upon the current standards. If you dont like the standards that is your problem. But to look at these horses records and say they dont deserve to be in basically means that after 2000 no other filly will ever get in because name a filly that has a record near theirs.

Using your example if Curlin was on the ballot versus Spectacular Bid he would have no chance to get voted in. Yet he clearly belongs based upon his accomplishments but when compared to perhaps the best horse in 30 years he has no chance. It would be like saying that John Stockton shouldnt be in the hall of Fame because he isnt as good as Micheal Jordan.

Here's the past performances for Sharp Cat (who isn't even nominated) before she suffered a career ending injury... note all the 1's on her form.



Note at the bottom that she was the 2/1 favorite in the Santa Anita Derby - she hooked Silver Charm through crazy fast fractions and softened him up for Free House.

She was scary good in those four races in '98 as a 4yo after leaving the Lukas barn.

Finished her career 15-for-22 with earnings over $2 million and was a multiple Grade 1 winner in each year that she raced. Took 7 Grade 1's overall. Never won an eclispe.

Pretty good pinhook as well ... just an 82K Nov weanling ... she went for 900K at Barretts March as a 2yo. Actually won a Grade 2 stake in a walkover .. not exactly the type of filly you wanted to hook on a wet track.

How can Point Given belong in any Hall of Fame?

I suppose Bernardini, or Barbaro and Big Brown, are next. What a joke.

you don't think he should be there? wasn't he the first to win four million dollar races in a row? still the only one to do it too, isn't he? if i had to choose, i'd go with tiznow between the two tho.

Oh, wow, he won four million dollar races?

He must be the best horsey ever.

He lost way too many races as a 2YO, whether he was best in them or not, and while he won some big races, and was a very good horse ( better, in fact, than the greatest horse ever, Big Brown ), he had an injury shortened career. He never faced olders.

Next.

Barbaro is a lock to get in.

Yet another Lukas superstar filly who has been incomprehensibly bad as a broodmare.

Barbaro and Big Brown will both get in the Hall.
Bernadini will not but, he would have drilled them both.

I think that's a myth.

Why don't you run the list?
I'd like to see it debunked, to be honest.

yeah, that's true.
but i think we'll continue to see horses that probably don't belong in there-because what alternative is there, other than to see none inducted in future? i don't even get much excitement at the thought of tiznow going in-he had his moments, but he doesn't have an overwhelming career.
isn't that what they should have?

none of the three belong. winning the derby doesn't guarantee a spot.

Her offspring are actually undefeated..both foals to race are each 1-1.

yeah - they seemed to have inherited her soundness issues.

We already went through this last year. I will copy-paste what I posted last year about it.

Big Brown has no chance
barbaro doesnt deserve it on accomplishment but he has sympathy

worked for heath ledger-not that he knows it tho.

Thanks- nice work. However, besides Flanders, Althea, and Serena's Song, it's a stretch to say any of the rest did much in the shed. He had so many great fillies... what about the ones like Sharp Cat who were tremendous, but never won a championship, and were just dreadful as producers?

Perhaps my expectations have been too high of them over the years as he really did train some tremendous fillies.

We don't know what Point Given would have done, but he was certainly no ordinary horse, even by G1 standards. As discussed, he is the only horse to win 4 straight million dollar races in a 6 for 7 campaign at 3. He missed being the 2yo champ by a desperate nose to Macho Uno in the BC Juvenile.

Unfortunately, that's what we are looking at happening because not too many from this era deserve it. It's sad because it's not the fault of the horses because they don't chose to be raced five times a year and retired after their 3yo seasons.

Maybe there should be a new wing added. Or an asterisk applied and call this the "modern era" and have the pre-1980 horses on one side and the post-1980 horses on the other. I wouldn't even do that though. I'd just list all of the eligible horse and anyone of them that gets 90% of the vote goes in. Instead of lowering the standards, how about raising them.

Let me see if I have this straight.....horses belong in the Hall of Fame if they are close to being 2YO champions and not ordinary?

OK....gotcha.

When the hell is Jeannie Jones getting in anyway?