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-   -   Joel Rosario (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26600)

eajinabi 12-07-2008 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegossard
Do you know the difference it means to win a Grade I or run second ? Why don't you ask the owners of Obrigado after that ride if they are content with a 2nd place? I'm sorry if you cant see that it was a horrendous decision by Rosario, but it was.

What is your point about him being 1-9 have to do with anything? Please explain that rather idiotic remark. Obrigado's pp lines are nothing spectacular , perhaps go back and actually look at them. Again....a first place in a Grade I is a world of difference between a 2nd place. Sorry you cant comprehend that.
Noting sarcasm is not your strongest point.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Keep reaching. You're making this about everything OTHER than the decision Rosario made. You started with who was better on paper. Then you wanted to try and interpret what Rosario's thought process was. Now, you are interpreting the events of the race incorrectly.

The discussion was about the ride Rosario gave and more importantly his decisions around the turn into the stretch. What you fail to see or just don't want to, is if Rosario did what Valdivia did, he wins the race. He didn't. He decided to go outside, instead of stay in. Valdivia, like a polished rider, stayed patient, saw an opportunity and took it.

Rosario's bad decision to move out instead of stay inside enabled Champs to win. Winchester was coming out, if Rosario stays in, he has the same trip Champs got and he's in the winners circle. I also disagree Champs was the best horse yesterday. I realize it's completely subjective, but if you swith Obrigado's trip with Champs, he wins IMO.
For some reason you are unable or unwilling to grasp the idea that perhaps Obrigado doesnt win regardless of what the jockey does in that situation. And for some reason, you keep telling me that im "reaching" instead of addressing the point that i am making.

I am not debating that Champs got a better trip.

eajinabi 12-07-2008 02:48 PM
I Just dont see how Rosario cost Obrigado the race. Matter of fact he had him
in perfect position throughout, sitting chilly behind the two leaders. On the turn he had to swing to the outside to contend Mr. Chairman but Champs was in full steam and Rosario urged his horse to run in tandem with Champs but he was the better horse that day and obrigado ran very game. i dont see how he could have gotten a better trip

pgardn 12-07-2008 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eajinabi
I Just dont see how Rosario cost Obrigado the race. Matter of fact he had him
in perfect position throughout, sitting chilly behind the two leaders. On the turn he had to swing to the outside to contend Mr. Chairman but Champs was in full steam and Rosario urged his horse to run in tandem with Champs but he was the better horse that day and obrigado ran very game. i dont see how he could have gotten a better trip
Seems he did make the wrong decision to me.
But calling it a horrible ride is ridiculous (I know you did not).
He did a very good job early in the race of settling
a horse that imo. appeared to be a bit full of himself
for a mile and a half.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
You're reaching because you are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the ride. I am unwilling to grasp your idea because IMO it's incorrect. You're basing it on what the horses look like on paper and honestly you're giving Champs way too much credit. He's proven to be not the killer you're trying to make him. I'm talking about the race itself.

Do yourself a favor. Go watch the replay again. Reverse the trips the 2 horses got and tell me Champs still wins, because if Rosario stays inside, Valdivia would have to do what Rosario did.
I just watched it again. If Rosario stays inside, his path MAY be impeded by winchester who would not have tried to fan out. Champs MAY have kept the momentum even while losing a few paths and still win.

Is this not possible?

dalakhani 12-07-2008 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
:wf :wf
You beat me to it!:p

westcoastinvader 12-07-2008 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
I just watched it again. If Rosario stays inside, his path MAY be impeded by winchester who would not have tried to fan out. Champs MAY have kept the momentum even while losing a few paths and still win.

Is this not possible?

TVG just showed the replay at about 5PM EST.

I noted that Rosario did a nice job getting his horse settled down and focused on the back stretch. Not sure he would have been there for the final run if he had not done so.

I know it's been bounced back and forth on semantics, but no way was that ride a choke.

I'm also not certain the inside path would have been available. If we would have banked on the inside track and been shut off and missed the board, that would have been a ride to question.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
So, you're not sure the exact same inside path Valdidivia took on Champs a few seconds later would have been available? Why not, if Valdivia took it literally 3 seconds later? Would it have magically closed?
The path opened so nicely becausee Winchester went outside to fan Obrigado. Smullen hits him twice left handed.

If Obrigado stays in, isnt it likely smullen closes the door inside?

westcoastinvader 12-07-2008 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
So, you're not sure the exact same inside path Valdidivia took on Champs a few seconds later would have been available? Why not, if Valdivia took it literally 3 seconds later? Would it have magically closed?
Valdivia had an easier decision than Rosario as the race unfolded. When Rosario took the sure route on the outside of the 3, the inside was still in doubt.

By the time Valdivia got there, the inside was open due to Rosario's decision to go out for a sure chance and the #3 horse (2-1) drifting wider.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
No, I don't think so. To me it looked like Winchester was coming out regardless. I don't buy the whole fanning out thing. Especially considering Obrigado's odds. Do you really think Smullen was worried about a 23-1 or so horse? Didn't he read the racing form?
Smullen is from the UK. The racing form here is written in American:p

And if he wasnt fanning out, why is he whipping left handed?

dalakhani 12-07-2008 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
So we can agree that Rosario's decision to go wide instead of stay in probably cost him more than the 1/2 length or so he got beat?
Oh sure it did. It was probably about three lengths. However, what is not quantifiable is the momentum he was able to keep by going wide and whether or not that was more important than the lost ground. We also dont know what would have happened if he would have stayed inside. We also dont know if Champs had enough horse to take it outside and still win.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
You've completely lost me. Fanning out? I'm going to stop posting now, because at this point I'm not sure what other excuse you'll come up with. As usual, we started talking about a decision Rosario made, and now we're in "what if" land. Sorry, you guys can have fun playing that game. For what it's worth I think Rosario rode a fine race for 98% of the race. I just think his decision to go out cost him the win. I think the small margin of victory, by the perfect trip Champs validates my thinking. That's it.

I think Rosario is a good rider and I have no issue with him. I didn't bet the race, so it's not sour grapes. I just think he should have won the race and would have if he remained calm like Valdivia did.
I think its hilarious that its okay for you to make an If/then statement i.e If Rosario takes the inside path then he wins and then you criticize me for making my own hypothetical scenario. The whole thread is based on a hypothesis that a choice to go inside would have resulted in a win for Obrigado. What makes your hypothesis any more kosher than mine or anyone else's?

The bottom line is that Obrigado had his best result in a graded stake of his career. Calling the ride a choke (the statement i originally responded to) is just plain wrong. We will never know what would have resulted if he would have taken the inside path.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 08:19 PM
[quote=DaHoss9698]Thanks for clearing it up for me. And, I wasn't criticizing you for an if/then statement. I was criticizing you for bringing up every other non existant factor than the actual decision itself. But, nothing new there...
I'd also urge you to take a look at Obrigado's PP's one more time. He's not the "claimer" you are trying to paint him to be. He won a grade 2 at Santa Anita last year.[/QUOTE]

LOL. That was "Grade 2" was in February 07 Which would be closer to two years ago and it came over in a 7 horse field over the vaunted On the Acorn. Champs won a Grade 1 in September to go along with his other graded wins and placings. But yet Champs needed a perfect trip to beat a horse that hadnt won in two years???????????

That makes a TON of sense. Of course, nothing new there...;)

And by the way, I am happy to clear these things up for you.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Dala, this isn't one of your better efforts. But, you've really lost it with this statement: But yet Champs needed a perfect trip to beat a horse that hadnt won in two years???????????

That makes a TON of sense. Of course, nothing new there...

Yes, he did. Did you see the race yesterday? You yourself said you think going outside probably cost Obrigado 3 lengths. He was beat about a half. :zz:

I'd stick to bridgejumping discussions up here....just a thought.
What i said was that it is not possible to quantify how important the continuity of momentum was worth and that it wasnt possible to tell what would have happened if he stayed inside. If judged merely on lost ground, I would say around three lengths.

Despite your weak cheap shots, you fail to address either issue. But then again, nothing new there...;)

stonegossard 12-07-2008 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Dala, this isn't one of your better efforts. But, you've really lost it with this statement: But yet Champs needed a perfect trip to beat a horse that hadnt won in two years???????????

That makes a TON of sense. Of course, nothing new there...

Yes, he did. Did you see the race yesterday? You yourself said you think going outside probably cost Obrigado 3 lengths. He was beat about a half. :zz:

I'd stick to bridgejumping discussions up here....just a thought.

Dude....I owe you an apology. I cant believe you carried this on for so long. My point was that Rosario made a bad decision. Apparently Rosario has a huge fan base on here and his followers will have none of this criticism. I read some of the responses from this Dalakahni person. It's like arguing with a 7 yr old. This person changes his/her tune every post. I personally like the "horse lost because it was 23-1" comment. IMHO.....the owners of Obrigado should not be racing this animal.....think of all the money they could make with a horse that can read the DRF?

Also was Winchester drifting out..or in...or out ...or in?

Rosario isnt a BAD jock....he just made a bad decision which cost him and the connections a Grade I. He will continue to win the non pretigious races in So Cal.

dalakhani 12-07-2008 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegossard
Dude....I owe you an apology. I cant believe you carried this on for so long. My point was that Rosario made a bad decision. Apparently Rosario has a huge fan base on here and his followers will have none of this criticism. I read some of the responses from this Dalakahni person. It's like arguing with a 7 yr old. This person changes his/her tune every post. I personally like the "horse lost because it was 23-1" comment. IMHO.....the owners of Obrigado should not be racing this animal.....think of all the money they could make with a horse that can read the DRF?

Also was Winchester drifting out..or in...or out ...or in?

Rosario isnt a BAD jock....he just made a bad decision which cost him and the connections a Grade I. He will continue to win the non pretigious races in So Cal.
And you got to make it personal with the needless insult?

I didnt say anything about drifting, hossy did.

How has my tune changed? Ive stayed consistent. It seems you read like you watch a race and i cant be blamed for either of those deficiencies.

v j stauffer 12-08-2008 01:35 AM
What an intense wonderful debate. I love it when true fans trade blows in a respectful way talking about our game and Grade 1 races.

Joel rode Obrigado as he was instructed to.

We're thrilled with a 5 win day and 2nd in a Grade 1 for a great trainer.

Hopefully he'll continue to get opportunities to ride great horses for great connections.

Fabulous thread.

dalakhani 12-08-2008 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. That's why I suggested sticking to bridgejumping. If that's a cheap shot, well I'm guilty I guess. The attempt to play the victim role is a new one for you. Not as effective as your other role I think.
Victim? LOL.

What makes your opinion anymore valid than mine or anyone else's in this matter?

Is it your years of experience as a jockey?

Your experience as a trainer?

Your personal website with millions of hits showing all of the people that value the opinion of Dahoss9698 when it comes to all things horses?


You are just a bettor/racing fan like the rest of us so please spare me the "you dont know what you are talking about" bit because you are in no position one way or the other to judge it.

Danzig 12-08-2008 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer
What an intense wonderful debate. I love it when true fans trade blows in a respectful way talking about our game and Grade 1 races.

Joel rode Obrigado as he was instructed to.We're thrilled with a 5 win day and 2nd in a Grade 1 for a great trainer.

Hopefully he'll continue to get opportunities to ride great horses for great connections.

Fabulous thread.
and here i thought this would be the last words on the subject. silly me.

stonegossard 12-08-2008 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer
What an intense wonderful debate. I love it when true fans trade blows in a respectful way talking about our game and Grade 1 races.

Joel rode Obrigado as he was instructed to.

We're thrilled with a 5 win day and 2nd in a Grade 1 for a great trainer.

Hopefully he'll continue to get opportunities to ride great horses for great connections.

Fabulous thread.

Anytime Vic. 5 wins is nice. But too bad he didnt win the big race. His move on the turn cost the horse the race....but hopefully you will go over the race with him and point out his mistake and make him a better jockey.

dalakhani 12-08-2008 09:26 AM
:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegossard
Anytime Vic. 5 wins is nice. But too bad he didnt win the big race. His move on the turn cost the horse the race....but hopefully you will go over the race with him and point out his mistake and make him a better jockey.
He just said he was riding to instructions. Do you need that translated to braile or swahili as well?:rolleyes:

stonegossard 12-08-2008 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
:rolleyes:

He just said he was riding to instructions. Do you need that translated to braile or swahili as well?:rolleyes:

Man are you ignorant. What were his instructions? "Lose ground on the far turn and open up rail for the eventual winner". If so he followed them perfectly.

Any person with two functioning eyes in their head can see that Rosario made the wrong choice and went wide instead of holding position inside with a dying horse in 2nd. There was plenty of room to stay on the rail.

Very simple case here...Rosario stays inside..Obrigado gets a Grade I win. He didnt and handed the race to Valdivia. Watch the finish..Obrigado still had a ton of horse even after going wide...he was the best horse Saturday.

Just because the agent of the jock said it was a good ride doesnt mean it was. What is he gonna say. My jock screwed up.

IF VS thinks that Rosario did the right thing on the turn and didnt cost his horse the win then maybe perhaps he should stick to announcing.

dalakhani 12-08-2008 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonegossard
Man are you ignorant. What were his instructions? "Lose ground on the far turn and open up rail for the eventual winner". If so he followed them perfectly.

Any person with two functioning eyes in their head can see that Rosario made the wrong choice and went wide instead of holding position inside with a dying horse in 2nd. There was plenty of room to stay on the rail.

Very simple case here...Rosario stays inside..Obrigado gets a Grade I win. He didnt and handed the race to Valdivia. Watch the finish..Obrigado still had a ton of horse even after going wide...he was the best horse Saturday.

Just because the agent of the jock said it was a good ride doesnt mean it was. What is he gonna say. My jock screwed up.
LOL

Im ignorant but you cant read what Vic said in the post and cant deduce from the ride what the instructions were. LOL

Let me guess and maybe Vic can confirm what the instructions were later. "stay on the rail and take him out around the turn for a clear run".

But then again, you probably know more than Vic or anyone else on the matter right?

Coach Pants 12-08-2008 09:58 AM
LAST WORD!

stonegossard 12-08-2008 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
LOL

Im ignorant but you cant read what Vic said in the post and cant deduce from the ride what the instructions were. LOL

Let me guess and maybe Vic can confirm what the instructions were later. "stay on the rail and take him out around the turn for a clear run".

But then again, you probably know more than Vic or anyone else on the matter right?
Like I said..anyone (and most on here) agree......Rosario would have won the race if he stayed on thie inside. I am sorry if this is too tough to comprehend. You really didnt watch the race clearly if you cant see this.

If Vic REALLY thought that Rosario's decision at the LAST PART OF THE RACE was a good one, then again, he should stick to announcing. Winchester was dead and going backwards. No reason to go wide like that.

Who am I to question a racetrack announcer.............

Danzig 12-08-2008 10:55 AM
there are horses who don't like inside, maybe he was instructed to not take the horse up the rail. it's conceivable that this is what happened.
it's also in the realm of possibility that had he gone up the rail, he'd have still lost-champs tends to loaf on the lead-perhaps adding to a possible illusion that obrigado was gaining/had a chance.

stonegossard 12-08-2008 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig
there are horses who don't like inside, maybe he was instructed to not take the horse up the rail. it's conceivable that this is what happened.
it's also in the realm of possibility that had he gone up the rail, he'd have still lost-champs tends to loaf on the lead-perhaps adding to a possible illusion that obrigado was gaining/had a chance.
I am pretty sure the horse doesnt mind the inside. Obrigado was inside sitting nicely for a good part of the race. If he did mind the inside then Rosario would not have tucked in....as instructed.

In my opinion, no way in hell CE would have passed Obrigado. Valdivia was all over him in the stretch, it's not like he won easily. CE is a nice horse...but is not the dominant horse some on here think. His win up at WDB was against a very weak field. He then came back to lose up there to a horse who ran pretty poor next out. I guess some of the geniuses on here didnt go back and notice that CE didnt beat Obrigado by much when they met in The San Marcos earlier this year. I believe one person on here claimed CE was "20 lengths better than Obrigado". I am glad people like that bet money into wagering pools.

Scav 12-08-2008 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I wasn't aware as a bettor i needed years of experience as a jockey or trainer in order to have an opinion on race watching. My mistake. When did you ride? How many winners did you have as trainer? What's your personal website with all of the hits?

And since you're under the delusion that all opinions carry equal weight, should we have a poll? Who's opinion people here would rather bet their money on, mine or yours?
What if Dala was Frankie Dettori? :p

Antitrust32 12-08-2008 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I wasn't aware as a bettor i needed years of experience as a jockey or trainer in order to have an opinion on race watching. My mistake. When did you ride? How many winners did you have as trainer? What's your personal website with all of the hits?

And since you're under the delusion that all opinions carry equal weight, should we have a poll? Who's opinion people here would rather bet their money on, mine or yours?
all I have to do is check out Dala's opinion of Donavan McNabb to know who I'd choose ;)

I bet she thinks McNabb beat the Giants all by himself yesterday.


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