I may give them to much credit, but have seen things like this play out in the past, and think the synthetic tracks will only heighten some of the logic they use.

I highly doubt the segment who has not been victimized in the past would have a bias paranoia.

well I guess running in the BC is now a must as all the hot air i hear about the award only contains 2 names. I never thought i would be defending big Brown but he has accomplished as much or more than the other two though i would get physically sick if i actually watched the Eclipse awards show regardless of who won.

I would imagine it has something to do with his competition for the award this season, maybe in a year when Azeri won it he would have a great shot but there are two horses who had tremendous years. Frankly winning 2/3rds of the triple crown, I dont think it carries the same weight as it once did in people minds.

Curlin v. Zenyatta v. Raven's Pass
 

Curlin is HOTY. He could not enter Ladies Classic. Zenyatta could have entered Classic, outrun Raven's Pass, and claim HOTY honors, but did not choose that path.

This is somewhat like BCS college football debate (or as some would say, debacle). There is no playoff system in horse racing either. Horses compete, and avoid, each other throughout calendar year. Therefore, let's encourage Curlin, Zenyatta, and Raven's Pass to all enter Clark at Churchill Downs next month. If Zenyatta and Raven's Pass aren't "surface specialists", their connections should not fear challenging Curlin on his preferred surface, dirt.

Other suggestions, thoughts, or ideas?

Is this a version of " you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you? "

You're nuts.

Didn't Kotashan and Azeri win HOY? Didn't Ferdinand somehow beat Theatrical?

Curlin had a tremendous year? You obviously have low standards. Zenyatta had a good year but beat only fillies and outside of 2 races very forgettable fillies. Since when is the KY Derby and Preakness and Haskell not big enough races?

Curlin won three weak dirt races and finished off the board despite leading in the stretch in his last race. Would you vote Notre Dame number one too?

I argue that they negativity surrounding from the eastern part of the country, the only major year round ciruit that still has dirt, that synthetics will heighten how and why they vote and you bring up Azeri, I dont see how they are related.

Theatrical is a turf horse, if he wanted to win a award that is supposed to go to a dirt runner (I read that a couple pages back) he should have entered that race....I think I saw that here with Zenyatta running in the classic.

The names on the races don't make the races though. If your competition sucked, it sucked. Since when were the JCGC and Woodward not big enough? None of these races are good races just because the name says they are. The Haskell was no better than the Woodward. The Derby and Preakness were no better than Dubai and the JCGC. The Florida Derby was no better than the Foster.

I was just talking with someone and told them that I come from the school of thought that says you have to knock out the champ. If you let it come down to a decision against the champ, you lose. Well, BB didn't knock out the champ on any scorecard. The only thing that could be said is that he tied him on a couple.

Quality of races won-draw.
Number of grade ones-draw.
Speed figures-Curlin by a lot.

I'd even give Curlin the edge in quality of competition faced. Wanderin Boy, Well Armed, and AP Arrow.....they aren't exactly a who's who of racing. But I'd take them in a landslide over Coal Play, Smooth Air, Eight Belles, Denis of Cork, Anak Nakal, and Tomcito.

And who did Big Brown beat?

to be fair, he beat everyone he faced. except for kent desormeaux.

Azeri was a West Coast horse that won HOY ( and a reasonably questionable one at that ). Kotashan was a West Coast horse that won as well ( and a turf horse ). Theatrical was also a turf horse, and one that won six or seven Grade 1s over the course of nine months, and he lost to a West Coast horse with a decent but hardly spectacular resume.

Your perception of East Coast bias has no basis in fact. If you think the voters won't vote for Zenyatta because they see it as some sort of endorsement of polytrack then you are dead wrong, paranoid, and have no understanding of the voters in general.

Let me ask you this, who is going to win the champion sprinter for the year?

I have no idea who would even be qualified. I guess Midnite Lute might simply because he won the theoretical biggest race but you would have to tell me who is even in the hunt. The three NY Grade 1s were won by Bustin Stones, First Defence and Black Seventeen. I find it hard to believe any of them are in the running. Divine park won the Met....and basically nothing else. How could he be involved.

I am annoyed now that I even spent 30 seconds thinking about it.

Dubai doesnt count. speed figures are now part of the process? You just used AP Arrow in a positive way. I give up. Andy is right. If this qualifies as a good thing than it simply isnt worth trying.

As long as it's Big Brown or Curlin, I don't care which one it is. The HOY has to be able to beat Curlin or Big Brown if they were to meet in a championship race, not just be competitive but be able to beat them with reasonable certainty, something I can't say for sure Zenyatta would do by her limited competition this yr. Perfect record does not equal HOY to me, rather than best horse should.

I heard his defenders talking about how he's brought her along slowly and because she's only run 9f once, taking her to a 10f race against the best in the world wasn't practical. Then we watched two 3yo's who had never been past a mile and were trying a new surface for the first time and shipping across the ocean to do it run 1-2.

Not the same scenario. Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator, both of whom are likely never to run again (one confirmed), were essentially throwing up a Hail Mary to add luster to their stallion credentials. It worked. But note both were 20-1 to do it.

Zenyatta, who would have been 2nd choice, is likely to remain in training. She has all of next year to duck males. Save your bitching for then.

Besides, what were the odds Shirreffs was on a soapbox outside his Hollywood Park barn on a dark day actively "campaigning" for Zenyatta as HOY? Isn't it more likely a bunch of racing journalists were baiting him all morning with questions about it? What was he supposed to say, "No, she doesn't deserve to be considered (note he didn't necessarily say she deserved it anyways) at all."?

Next thing you know, your buddy John Sadler would be training the horse.

:tro: :tro: :tro:

I didn't see Curlin or Zenyatta run last this year. They ran decently in all their races. It's between those two. B.B. ran horribly in the Belmont. Then, was desperate to beat mediocre horses in his next 2 races. So, he ran 3 good races against three year olds that aren't that fast. He just didn't progress. He didn't face much in his last two races. So, for HOY consideration he should of drawn off, but he (instead) barely won.

See, by far the best sprinter on accomplishment has been Street Boss, and he ran solid this past weekend, yet it did not even cross your eastern biased mind. :D

IMHO Zenyatta is a much better filly then Azeri. Azeri was a running machine but Zenyatta is a straight up freak who I think can get better.

No, I was pointing out that there was no East Coast horse that could realistically be considered. By inference, it pretty much had to be a West Coast based horse. Though, Indian Blessing will be one of the three finalists I assume.

Which West Coast based horse won the most Grade 1s sprinting. You might want to think about this one.

Intagaroo and you know I pointed it out elsewhere that she won the west, midwest, and east coasts grade 1 sprint events, something to my knowledge never has happened before.

I missed that post....but yes.

Of course, she shouldn't be considered, but it is interesting.

I wonder which three of Midnight Lute, Street Boss, Indian Blessing and Benny the Bull will be the finalists.

benny the bull, midnight lute and street boss in my opinion.

I know which one I dont want.

BTB win in Dubai technically is not counted right?

Midnight Lute won the sprint but finsihed 7th the other run, I dont like rewarding a 2 race season with an Eclipse, though he is the best horse by a distance of the group.

I thought there were two seperate awards for males and females. I don't know who gets it for males but I'd probably vote for Midnight Lute. For the females, even though I think Indian Blessing is the better one, I'd vote for Intangaroo. I don't see how Intangaroo's record doesn't trump Indian Blessing's. Indian Blessing won two grade one's sprinting and both were against 3yo fillies. She beat open company once, in a grade two. None of the horses that completed the exactas and tris in those three races have done anything of note, save for maybe one or two grade three wins. Meanwhile, Intangaroo won three open company grade one races and two of them, the Humana Distaff and the Ballerina were on real dirt. In those races, she beat Baroness Thatcher, Hystericalady, Miraculous Miss, and Sugar Swirl, all graded stakes winners and gave them all weight while doing it. Based on record, it's really not even close.

For reals? You really think that Kotoshaan wasn't a better horse than those two?

I don't know how to respond to that.

If the Dubai World Cup counts for Curlin, why wouldn't a sprint race in Dubai count for BTB?? That would be a gross double standard.

Champion filly sprinter has to be IB or Ventura. Intangaroo lost too many times, and was soundly beaten in the BC.

You'd get no argument from me accept that I don't want to reward a filly who's only two sprint wins came on synthetics when there are two deserving candidates with dirt wins.

Ok so let me get this straight. The Dubai World Cup is for all intents and purposes, an American race. But you say it doesn't count. They have given the championships to numerous European horses that have come over and run once and won because their European records supported it but when one of ours runs overseas, it doesn't count? How fair is it that Singspiel has a championship without winning a single race in the United States but won anyway because his foreign record supported it but Curlin's race in Dubai doesn't count. If Curlin's Dubai race doesn't count, then the accomplishments overseas of no other horses count and some Eclipse awards need to be rescinded. Like I've said before, I don't disagree with anyone that says that the criteria of the awards should be changed to say that a horse has to start at least 4-5 times here and that his foreign record isn't to be considered. Won't disagree at all. But until they make that change, under the present criteria and with precedent clearly having been set over and over again, Dubai absolutely does count.

Curlin will be HOY. Zenyatta had a teriffic campaign, but needed to run and win in the BCC to get the top honor, IMO. Personally, I'd put Big Brown over Zenyatta in the voting too.
When Azeri won HOY, it was mainly because there wasn't a top older male or 3yo alternative. (Volponi's BCC finalized that) The Champion older male in 2002 was Left Bank.. and Champion male 3yo was War Emblem, neither ended the year as worthy of HOY. Azeri deserved the title, but in a sense, won by default.
In 2008, Curlin and Big Brown are both worthy.

??? Wasnt Lady's Secret beating up on the boys all year long in '86:confused:

She won one race in 4 tries against males in '86: The Whitney over Ends Well and Fuzzy... She was 2nd in the Woodward to Precisionist (by 5L); 3rd in the Iselin to Roo Art and Precisionist (3.5L) and 3rd in the Met Mile to Garthorn and Love That Mac (1.25L).

Don't start knocking Fuzzy.

Turkoman was fourth in that Met Mile.

I think she finished ahead of Personal Flag in the Woodward.

He wasn't exactly a superstar ( and he was one of my personal favorites ). What were his big wins....the Queen's County and a three horse blanket finish in the Widener?