Hezbollah is awful, but the blood is on the hands of the people that do the killing. Israel needs to go in and root them out, even if it means heavy casualties. All they are doing by bombing them is make people in Lebanon hate Israel and side with the terrorists.

They have been in there rooting them out. They have been doing both things. They have been fighting on the ground and they have been bombing from the air. They actually lost quite a few troops in the ground war.

You are right that the bombing will make people in Lebanon hate Israel. Its really a lose/lose situation for Israel. Even when Israel is in there with troops on the ground fighting, there will still be plenty of civilians killed because the terrorist are hiding amongst civilians and firing on them from these positions.

Well what is the point then in all of this. Either start a war with Iran or stop wasting your time. What Israel is doing is nothing more than a temporary solution. All they have done is help grow a new generation of terrorists. I hate the US involvement in Iraq but atleast we are trying to set up a government (which isn't going to work) and are seen by many as trying to help. I have no idea what the point is in what Israel is doing.

Flash!!! The Lebanese already have a dislike for the Israelis. What Israel is doing isn't new.... They've been trashing Lebanon for 25 years.

It's pretty obvious that the Lebanese government is powerless...once supported by GW Bush. Condi to the rescue???
I don't think so.
Israel is doing what they're doing with US supplied weapons. This further diminishes US credibility in the Arab (Muslim) world.
So, what to do?
Well, the UN is ineffective, and their observers have been killed by Israel.
The pay back for them will be huge, indeed. They really do look like the "bad guys" to many.
Do you think that they over reacted to the taking of two soldiers and used this as an excuse to destroy the infrastructure of a struggling democracy?
Don't get me wrong, lots of blood is on both parties' hands.
So, my question....how would YOU stop this insanity when the 48 hours are up?
Sad to say, many more will die.
Hezzbolah isn't going to run out of rockets anytime soon, and Israel isn't going to run out of tanks or F-16's and drones with serious fire.
Israel has gone very far to create enemies, as has the current US policies.
When will it end?
I really don't know.
Is it when they've killed enough of each other's children, one with bombs and the other with suicide bombers on buses?
Seems that there's just too much innocent blood for me to consider before it's resolved.
I really would like to hear your thoughts.
I've just said mine...and I don't see much good.

Praying for sanity and peace,
DTS

we support israel because it's a democracy surrounded by countries that are anything but. it's falls in line completely with our support of other democracies. plus america always tends to support the underdog. probably because we haven't forgotten we were once the underdog not so long ago--we're a bunch of mutts really...
also, the jewish people are without a doubt the most vilified, hated, victimized people this world has EVER seen. every plague, war, famine, etc that struck euro countries over the centuries--when the going got tough, guess who was turned into the scapegoat? banished from countries, children taken to be raised the 'right way' in christian households, while parents were killed. and this has been for two thousand-odd years. this isn't something new that hitler started.


losing a crusade? go home and kill the jews in your cities.
losing the hundred years war? can't beat france/england/spain/portugal? hanseatic league giving you fits? prussia? see above...

the israelis should be left alone to live in peace, rather than constantly dealing with all their neighbors wanting nothing more than their complete annihilation.

Danzig,
I certainly agree with you. Not to mention the Inquisition in Spain, and so many other atrocities that have been committed against Jewish (Hebrew) people.
Unfortunately, now they are seen to be the "aggressors". It is seen by many that they are doing to others as has been done to them.
I don't think they'll turn the other cheek, or learn to "love" their enemies.
They've heard it before and rejected that advice.
In fact, the messanger of those words of wisdom was killed in a horrible manner.
So, back to my question...
"What would YOU do to end this insanity?"

move?

no, seriously...

first of all, we can't base our foreign policy on whether we will be liked by others for our decisions. we have to do what's right. not necessarily what is expedient or popular. in a nutshell, as long as we support israel we will be hated by arabs. it's that simple. if we are the only think separating israel from annihilation, then we stay the course.

i heard mention of a dmz, that's a start. also, we say we don't want to 'nation build' but a bit of that would go a long way in lebanon--they must have a legitimate govt in order to take any kind of control.

the un being what it is, i'd be more comfortable if nato stepped in instead.

israel has been thru, what, five wars in it's short life? that's crazy. they gave so much a few years ago, but arafat backed out--he and many others don't want a deal. they don't want palestine, they want israel GONE. how do you deal with that? there's no common ground to be reached.

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

This whole "spreading democracy" or "preserving democracy" thing is one of the biggest shams ever. Do people really believe the US govt cares what system a country uses as long as our ships are sailing in the same direction?

A democracy and the rule of law, in the middle of tyrannical Oil governments and impoverished killing machines. How many times does this need to be repeated. That is what we get. You dont like that. Tough luck. I dont like my money going certain places either. Vote for a president and Congress that supports tyranny abroad. Good luck finding candidates... check that, Pat Buchanan is your man.

Such as Eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, et al?

Yes we care on the whole. We would like people all over the world to be able to worship as they please, enjoy a successful life based merit, and vote for their own leaders... and much more. We dont like Saudi Arabia's govt. but we put up with it because their is nothing to replace it at the moment. Democracy might not work as a system in some countries, but the right of human freedom and dignity has a Judeo-Christian foundation that makes total sense to most of the world. It has spread because it is morally sound.

You can be a cynical as you want, but overall this is what we strive for although we have made many mistakes and dont follow our own ideals sometimes. We are hardly perfect. But the basics are clear.

We have propped up highly tyrannical governments in the past. Made some horrible mistakes as long as countries gave us what we needed or just plain would bend to our will. We have learned the hard way that does not work.

Everyone of those president you just mentioned played an important role in constantly badgering the largest country in the world to clean up their act. Constantly, with no gain whatsoever on our part other than getting individuals released because of religious or political persecution. IN fact it is to our detriment to keep badgering China. But we do it anyway.

Name a country with more people than China that we have done the opposite.

If this is true then why are there so many examples of leadership that the US has not only supported but also implemented that stray so far from your stated "ideals"?

You can be as idealistic if you like (or rather naive) but the proof is more on my side than on yours.

America over the last 60 years has looked out more times than not for her own interests first. Whether it be politically or financially dont be mistaken that our interests have come first and more times than not financial interests, whether individual or national, have driven American policy.

I find nothing at all wrong with America looking out for herself first. The problem i have is with the politicians spinning it into this "we are the world" thing and the mindless sheep that actually believe this bull****.

Sorry pal. You seem like an intelligent guy but this is a pretty dumb question. Think about it.

Actually I really dont need to. You got the point.

We are asking the most populated country in the world to clean up their act to our detriment. A country that constantly thwarts us in the UN and in many other ways, just to get a few political and religious prisoners released. I mean come on guy, what the hell good does it do us to say lay off the people of Nepal?

and what good would it do us to keep our mouths shut? LOL

We have spent far more money in Africa than any other country in the World. We dumped some Marines in the middle of Somalia just to break up a horrific tribal war, and got them killed. We have done a hell of a lot of altruistic things. I am not naive enough to think everything is done this way. But I damn sure am not as totally cynical as you.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia, and why do we keep bugging China while losing huge bucks in trade with them because of it?

And why did we then abandon the somalians? nothing to gain maybe?

And why did we support Idi Amin or Mobutu or the countless others?

And why havent we been tougher with China on trade if we have such a problem with their human rights practices? Why were we much more lenient in our attitude toward China back when their human rights policies were measurably worse? Could it be because we needed them against the big, bad USSR?????

We have and will continue to do the wrong thing. We strive to do it right. We have backed some hideous killers you are correct.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia to BEGIN with? and that is not the reason we keep pestering China. The USSR is gone. So why dont we just lay off and get that trade that other countries step in for?

Excuse me for butting in Pat.
I think you and dala have a nice debate going.
But if we're going to talk about China now, and leave out Tibet...
oh nevermind.
Continue to discourse about Somalia.
Somehow that connects with Israel and Lebanon.
I'm very surprised that nobody brought up Grenada or Panama.
Chile or Libya anyone?

Back to my question, Pat....
Just suppose that somehow you got yourself elected to be president of the USA...
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Go with what Israel is doing...bomb the sh-t out of Lebanon at all costs to "get" Hezzbollah...and incur the negitive fall out from many Arab allies,
or hope for a cease fire and bring in the UN and/or NATO?

Let me add this-

Much of the criticism i have of our govt does not apply to our people. For the most part, our citizens want to do what is right. I think most of our soldiers bravely fight for honor, duty and love of country. I think they believe that if they die that they are dying for a just cause. I have nothing but respect for them.

I am proud to be an American. I am just not proud of the current administration.

17.7 billion dollar trade deficit??????????????????????????

Yes, it seems that we are indeed being REALLY tough on China.

Quick history lesson:

The US supported the ousted leader Barre from 1978 until he was overthrown in 2001. We backed him to a tune of 900 million dollars while he killed, raped and pillaged.

In the ensuing Melee', the US wanted to take control of the southern part of the red sea but more importantly the Suez Canal.

The marines were there so that a religious fundamentalist wouldnt take over thus preventing the US from possibly mining for oil to the north.

Maybe you didnt know this.

I would continue to ask for the UN resolution of the total disarming of Hezbollah. I would ask Israel to try harder to miss civilians. My problem is that I wonder how many of the people they have hit have armed, or are armed Hezbollah. Obviously the children killed and hurt is absolutely chilling.

I really dont know what I would do. Its a very difficult situation. I guarantee one thing. If Israel is actually ever left alone, the will not harm anyone. And if commerce between the Israelis and the Arab neighbors ever takes place on a large scale, wonders can happen. See Northern Ireland. I understand the power of putting people to work and allowing them to leave peacefully while taking care of the family. Northern Ireland has become a shining example that there is still some hope.

I did not know this, but I know of other situations that back your case that are horrible. I also know a lot of cases I have not mentioned that support my basic premise. On the whole, we TRY to do the right thing.

My Uncle (my father's Identical twin) was in the foreign service all my life (mostly in Southeast Asia during the tumultuous 60's and 70's, Indonesia later) and was Ambassador to New Guinea as a career man. Hardly a giant post, and this in no way makes me an expert. But he has made it clear that we attempt to do the right thing even though politics gets in the way as always. I have peppered him with examples that dal. is peppering me with. He is also horrified about our situation in Iraq. He is not aligned with a political party, but I think he might be a little on the liberal side.
From most of the history I know, "we" have made some horrible decisions but have also acted in a manner that does not in anyway help us financially or politically and is totally on the side of human rights.

Pat,
Northern Ireland is a very good example, and so would be Japan, or Germany for that matter.
I take your point that trade can only flourish in mutally agreed (peaceful) circumstances.
On that I agree.
Unfortunately, as conditions apply to Israel and those that would wish to trade with her, each day that the destruction continues, the fewer potential trading partners will play.
Israel has done a great deal to generate animosity. The US has gone along for a very long time...
and, as an aside, I DO like Israel (but not current actions).
What does Israel export besides citrus, olive oil, and produce?
I know she imports a lot of armaments financed and supplied by the US.
Therein the vulnerability to the US to our "allies".

The old Arab saying goes something like this, "If you're friends with my enemy, you are also my enemy."

It will take many years for Israel to restore "trust relationships" with potential trading partners.
I hope they start on that path sooner than later.

I dont disagree with this. If it DOES NOT hurt us politically, we have and will help out. I cant cite any cases right now but im sure there have been some.

I just think this whole "spread democracy in the middle east" thing is the biggest load of s h i t a US govt has ever tried to perpetrate on the world and it own people. We arent in Iraq to "spread democracy". We arent there to "liberate people". If democracry indeed spreads and people are liberated then that is great but it is not even close to the main objective, an objective that has been spun and changed multiple times since the start of the iraqi war.

What does Israel export besides citrus, olive oil, and produce?
I know she imports a lot of armaments financed and supplied by the US.
Therein the vulnerability to the US to our "allies".

The old Arab saying goes something like this, "If you're friends with my enemy, you are also my enemy."


Brains (education) and hard work. Like Japan. Japan has very few natural resources, is a huge consumer of oil, and has made it on the back of innovation which is just getting ready to bust open in today's world if only peace would break out.

Thats why the Sunnis and Shiites kill each other right back. Thats why Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others want Iran to get their hands out... Persian Muslims, they hate the Persian part.

Oh yes. imo Yassir Arafat got Sharon elected by his deeds. Sharon is/was (he is barely alive) a "right wing take it to the Arabs".

I know that if Israel were ever left in peace... not bombed, kidnapped, suicide bombed, etc... they would help commerce take hold. They would gladly trade with the Palestinians and other Arab nations, they already have at some points in time. Israel understands the importance of education and commerce and understands the dangers of mindless zealotry. Remember they had their own Prime Minister's life take by a right wing Israeli fanatic.

Maybe not democracy. But for gosh sakes basic human rights... that has to sink in sometime. The middle east has gone thru far too many despots and crazy people. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe some cultures do not permit basic human rights. I mean my gosh look at what they do to their women. And what we did (and to some extent still do) to our women.

I have now been upgraded to Hollywood Park because of my political threads on a horse board. Hollywood Park will be developed into something else in two years most likely...

well how else do you support a country than with money???
where's your outrage for all the other countries we send money to? did you know that til 9/11 afghanistan was our #1 recipient of u.s. aid? fat lot of good that did us, huh? what about most favored nation trading status granted to china? does that burn your butt? or is it just israel that ticks you off? what about funding public schools? you don't have kids do you? what about interstates? do you drive on them all? i mean, why does hawaii have an interstate? what a waste of my money...

guess what, they already hate them and side with terrorists. nothing israel does, short of blowing themselves off the face of the earth, is going to change that.

You support them in things like the UN, which we already do. I don't need to give them my tax dollar to support them.

I have tremendous outrage when it comes to the US giving money to any country unless it is humanitarian. I have much more dislike of Mexico and China than I do Israel. Mexico and China actually cost americans jobs and Israel just sucks up my tax dollar.

As for public schools, they are underfunded because I am sending billions that should be going to public schools to countries like Israel, who should raise their own taxes, not take my money. As for your other comments, I don't like money being wasted at all, but I rather have it wasted on my country than another country like Israel or Egypt.

Here we go again with the money.

The Space Shuttle is an incredible waste of money... trying to keep humans alive instead of sending more probes out in which we could learn a whole lot more. The list goes on and on. We have throughout our history supplied money to foreign countries for many reasons. The money given to these countries is a drop in the bucket compared to health care and military expenditures. Do you think all of that money is used efficiently?

No, but it is Americans and American tax dollars being wasted on these silly little countries is a joke. It is not America's job to buy a military for ever silly little country on earth.

Bold Ruler,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I looked, the US was the leading supplier of armaments to other countries...purchased on credit.
For the US to redirect those lines of production and discontinue supply would cause serious dislocation to manufacturers in the US.
In other words, the US has built great dependency on making and selling arms.
The impact for transitioning from that paradigm would have serious outcomes for our economy.

Great. Move the money into another sector. The defense contractors already make too much anyway. It is the most ridiculous pork in the entire budget. It is only a matter of time before all these jobs are shipped overseas anyway. It is already beginning to happen.

Unfortunately, China is supplying silk worms and other very potent arms.
Russia continues to supply katusha rockets and most of the small arms (ak-47's and modifications).
I hope it was that easy for defense contractors to switch to other sources of market share.
That would indeed make sense, but I think the "pork" demanded by state representatives will continue. The transition simply will cost too much, especially if a growing market exists.

Shhheeeeiott....you coulda said that in the first place!!