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-   -   Tues. 08/05 ATR what a depressing show (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24371)

Cannon Shell 08-06-2008 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsUp
Very good point. I like when owners and trainers stay quiet and let the horse do the talking. Call me old fashion, but I do not like self promotion. Since you are a trainer...why do you think "legacy" is so important to them? Is it all ego driven?
In Jacksons case absolutely. The IEAH guys are trying to "promote" their investment in him. They took a large gamble when they decided to keep the majority of the horse as a stallion. They have lost a lot of "value" with his vunerability as he is not the "superhorse" they would have led you to believe. Not to mention they are still selling shares of IEAH and perhapps believe that any publicity is good publicity

DogsUp 08-06-2008 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
In Jacksons case absolutely. The IEAH guys are trying to "promote" their investment in him. They took a large gamble when they decided to keep the majority of the horse as a stallion. They have lost a lot of "value" with his vunerability as he is not the "superhorse" they would have led you to believe. Not to mention they are still selling shares of IEAH and perhapps believe that any publicity is good publicity
Do you know how much a share costs? And what is your opinion on these so called racing groups like Little Red Feather and IEAH?

Cannon Shell 08-06-2008 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsUp
Do you know how much a share costs? And what is your opinion on these so called racing groups like Little Red Feather and IEAH?
I dont know the particulars but it is a pretty sizable amount. I think in general partnerships are a positive but they can stray out of bounds in many cases. I really dont know enough about either of these groups in particular but it seems from the investors i have spoke to who have been involved with numerous partnerships their reactions range from a really good experience to outright theivery.

ArlJim78 08-06-2008 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Is Curlin running in the Japan Cup Dirt an exciting development? No. .
I would consider that a pretty big deal. exciting? it would be to me.
has a Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup sweep ever happened before, or even been attempted.

Coach Pants 08-06-2008 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
usurp my largess

Seriously???
After a few beers it sounds like "u slurp my large ass".

Antitrust32 08-06-2008 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
After a few beers it sounds like "u slurp my large ass".

sounds like a Shaq quote!

Cannon Shell 08-06-2008 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
I would consider that a pretty big deal. exciting? it would be to me.
has a Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup, Japan Cup sweep ever happened before, or even been attempted.
Japan Cup DIRT, not the Japan Cup. It is the secondary race

ArlJim78 08-06-2008 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Japan Cup DIRT, not the Japan Cup. It is the secondary race
yeah so? i assumed you were referring to the dirt race. i still don't get your point. Japan Cup exciting, Japan dirt cup not exciting? or nothing about Curlin racing in Japan would be exciting?

Cannon Shell 08-06-2008 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
yeah so? i assumed you were referring to the dirt race. i still don't get your point. Japan Cup exciting, Japan dirt cup not exciting? or nothing about Curlin racing in Japan would be exciting?
Japan Cup Dirt is like the 3rd place game in the NIT. Shipping to another country is nice but skipping the Breeders Cup to run in a race that no one really cares about outside of Japan (quick name 1 winner?) is kind of redundant to me. Not to mention he very well lose because the track there is like a plowed field. I would much rather see him on poly in the Classic which would do a whole lot more for racing and his legacy than going to Japan to run in the middle of the night against a bunch of horses that no one even knows exists. At least the Japan Cup attracts top foreign competition.

hockey2315 08-06-2008 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdjcom
Sorry about spelling of Surburban, I know i sound negative, but this Simon on every show he is on is bad news from him. Go back and listen to archives.

.....

hoovesupsideyourhead 08-06-2008 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALostTexan
I think the show is a waste of time, too.



Well, I do "waste" alot of my time with the podcasts, but it is a fun waste of time, and I waste alot of time in Arizona now because of the show...
byk has a stalker......

Danzig 08-06-2008 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
What does brashgodocious mean?
it means you're from surburbia.

Danzig 08-06-2008 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid
I think it's funny when people pick out one word or sentence from this guy's posts to question, as if the rest of the post makes sense.
still working on translating the rest, give us all time. it's not like we've found a rosetta stone yet!

Danzig 08-06-2008 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
One of the biggest problems that this sport faces is that the "racing media" has often consisted of flowery prose about lovely horses and press releases announcing "news" like a post race concert series. Adding to this is the inhouse "racing experts" who often know little to nothing about handicapping, training, riding or the historical aspects of the sport. One of the great things about this meet is the siros seminars which feature guys who actually get the sport, understand the wagering and handicapping aspect and realize the historical signifigance or lack thereof of certain performances and events. Steve's show which is unique in it is a daily show that needs to fill 3 hours a day is in many ways the equilivent of the Siros show on the air. He is passionate about the sport and attempts to educate the general listening public about the "other side of the fence" which is often the truth. In my case I am not afraid to tell the truth and speak in plain terms unlike some of the diplomatic trainers that you mentioned. Maybe you want to believe that Jess jackson is some wonderful guy and curlin is a racing god and Dutrow is colorful. Maybe you want to believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus too? This is 2008 and people want information and they want educated opinions. Steve and I give you both. If you choose not to like what we say, your call. But I will continue to swoon when people need to look at the beyer figure before determining whether a race was good or not and when a horse who has done nothing really special gets his "legacy" talked about. Am I excited over the prospect of Curlin in the Woodward? Not particularly. Would it be an interesting story if he ran against BB? Sure. If it is Curlin against the 7 dwarfs that ran in the Whitney or Steven Foster, how exciting is that? Is Curlin running in the Japan Cup Dirt an exciting development? No. Do I think that his 4 year old campaign has been "great for racing" like the other sheep? Not really. maybe because i have seen great horses up close and personal. maybe because I grew up in Saratoga and saw truly great races and still remember when horses needed to run in races to have a "legacy".

If you want fluff and bs, listen to Dave Johnsons show.
so....you're not a fluffer then????? ;)

Danzig 08-06-2008 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsUp
I get this post. However, I have a couple of issues with this. I do not believe one can compare Curlin and Big Brown to horses of past years. The game has changed too much. Curlin and Big Brown are the two most important horses that are racing in the U.S today. Talking about one's legacy is pointless. I think one should speak the truth regardless if it is rosey or black. One has to recognize what Big Brown and Curlin has done based on their racing career. They cannot help the quality of their foes. No matter what your opinion, you have to give respect to these two horses simply based on their wins:not beyers, times, foes, or mythical matchups.
why?

we're supposed to ignore what we've seen, what we know, and just grin like village idiots while the pretty horsies run? i don't think so.

pgardn 08-06-2008 08:08 PM
I think the show has improved quite a bit.
This racing year provided many opportunities to voice some real
concerns at the same time the show was "coming of age".

Enough confidence to be critical came at a very good time...
My view anyway.

sdjcom 08-06-2008 08:56 PM
what a depressing show
 
Well Cannon Shell i guess you put me in my place and set me straight.

sdjcom 08-06-2008 09:09 PM
Boy did I open a can of worms with depressing show
 
Ok I Stand Corrected Now Lets Have A Vote How Many Of You Want Me To Quit Posting So You Don't Have To Try And Read My Typing And Spelling? Cast Your Vote Yeah Or Nay I'll Stand By The Vote

AeWingnut 08-06-2008 09:15 PM
I don't understand your posts

is there a reason you capitalize every word?

no capital letters is prefereable to what you do.

hi_im_god 08-06-2008 09:17 PM
just because you lay on a cross, don't expect me to do the nailing.

Indian Charlie 08-06-2008 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdjcom
Ok I Stand Corrected Now Lets Have A Vote How Many Of You Want Me To Quit Posting So You Don't Have To Try And Read My Typing And Spelling? Cast Your Vote Yeah Or Nay I'll Stand By The Vote
Dude, your capitalization of every single word is the single most retarded thing on this board.

I'd rather listen to three hours of pg1985 explain all his exotic wagers than read a post of yours.

zippyneedsawin 08-07-2008 04:17 AM
Why didn't you capitalize every word in the thread title?

cmorioles 08-07-2008 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Japan Cup Dirt is like the 3rd place game in the NIT. Shipping to another country is nice but skipping the Breeders Cup to run in a race that no one really cares about outside of Japan (quick name 1 winner?) is kind of redundant to me. Not to mention he very well lose because the track there is like a plowed field. I would much rather see him on poly in the Classic which would do a whole lot more for racing and his legacy than going to Japan to run in the middle of the night against a bunch of horses that no one even knows exists. At least the Japan Cup attracts top foreign competition.
Fleet Street Dancer...that was easy.

Cannon Shell 08-07-2008 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
Fleet Street Dancer...that was easy.
Big shoes to follow

ArlJim78 08-07-2008 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Japan Cup Dirt is like the 3rd place game in the NIT. Shipping to another country is nice but skipping the Breeders Cup to run in a race that no one really cares about outside of Japan (quick name 1 winner?) is kind of redundant to me. Not to mention he very well lose because the track there is like a plowed field. I would much rather see him on poly in the Classic which would do a whole lot more for racing and his legacy than going to Japan to run in the middle of the night against a bunch of horses that no one even knows exists. At least the Japan Cup attracts top foreign competition.
The Japan Cup is a much bigger race, but lets face it he doesn't fit well with the top turf horses, Japan Cup or the Arc. To me the Japan dirt cup would still be a challenge despite its lesser status, because of the surface and travel issues.

My preference would be for him to repeat in the classic, but I think the guy wanted to avoid the Classic at all costs in order to make a statement and not have Curlin be the horse that legitimizes artificial surfaces at the top level.

FYI, Vermillion won it last year, I watched the race because Student Council ran in it and finished well back.

cmorioles 08-07-2008 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
...but I think the guy wanted to avoid the Classic at all costs in order to make a statement and not have Curlin be the horse that legitimizes artificial surfaces at the top level.
If that is true, I have a new hero.

ArlJim78 08-07-2008 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles
If that is true, I have a new hero.
i don't know if its true of course. just speculation based on what he has said and done.

think about it, if you are not a proponent of AWT and you have the number one horse in the world, you're going to try to keep him off it.

Cannon Shell 08-07-2008 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
The Japan Cup is a much bigger race, but lets face it he doesn't fit well with the top turf horses, Japan Cup or the Arc. To me the Japan dirt cup would still be a challenge despite its lesser status, because of the surface and travel issues.

My preference would be for him to repeat in the classic, but I think the guy wanted to avoid the Classic at all costs in order to make a statement and not have Curlin be the horse that legitimizes artificial surfaces at the top level.
Personally I find their entire campaign strange. They had the Arc as the goal and had no backup options as seemingly they believed him to be invincible. I believe that Assmussen is more afraid of the surface than Jackson. By not running the statement they make will soon be forgotten simply because virtually no one will see his final race in Japan and the news coverage will be close to nil here. This is not exactly a tour de force or ending his career with a bang if he inded is going to stud after this year. I am not opposed to the Japan Cup Dirt in any manner except if I have the "best" horse in the world who is supposedly soley running for his legacy, that race is way down the list of important races.

Cannon Shell 08-07-2008 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
i don't know if its true of course. just speculation based on what he has said and done.

think about it, if you are not a proponent of AWT and you have the number one horse in the world, you're going to try to keep him off it.
Yeah but if you are 78 you arent going to live long enough to see them ripped out

ArlJim78 08-07-2008 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Yeah but if you are 78 you arent going to live long enough to see them ripped out
true but Jackson knows that if Curlin adds a Classic victory on the new Santa Anita "mystery mix", to his victories at Monmouth and Dubai, that he will in effect be giving cover to other jurisdictions considering a change, and legitimizing the SA surface. He might not want to be remembered as the guy that helped to push it forward.

I agree though, that they are in a box now. How to end his career on a smashing high note without running in the Classic?

cmorioles 08-07-2008 11:30 AM
What is so great about the Classic this year? Black Ruby might be able to take it.

Cannon Shell 08-07-2008 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlJim78
true but Jackson knows that if Curlin adds a Classic victory on the new Santa Anita "mystery mix", to his victories at Monmouth and Dubai, that he will in effect be giving cover to other jurisdictions considering a change, and legitimizing the SA surface. He might not want to be remembered as the guy that helped to push it forward.

I agree though, that they are in a box now. How to end his career on a smashing high note without running in the Classic?
Honestly Jim the decision to go to synthetic will have very little to do on what happens or does not happen on the track. The "perception" that the syntheic tracks are safer and the "cover your ass" attitude that is prevelant in most businesses now is what will ultimately guide most jurisdictions. I do believe on wet surfaces there is no doubt that a properly installed and maintained synthetic is safer than dirt. For the other 90% of the days, not so much. But if one more semi high profile horse gets hurt on the dirt, watch how fast that track moves to a synthetic. And despite the greatest efforts and advances we will never stop breakdowns completely.

philcski 08-07-2008 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Honestly Jim the decision to go to synthetic will have very little to do on what happens or does not happen on the track. The "perception" that the syntheic tracks are safer and the "cover your ass" attitude that is prevelant in most businesses now is what will ultimately guide most jurisdictions. I do believe on wet surfaces there is no doubt that a properly installed and maintained synthetic is safer than dirt. For the other 90% of the days, not so much. But if one more semi high profile horse gets hurt on the dirt, watch how fast that track moves to a synthetic. And despite the greatest efforts and advances we will never stop breakdowns completely.
Careful... you're sounding like Sumitas... next thing you know you're going to tell me you bought all the Golden Missles in the sale

Cannon Shell 08-07-2008 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski
Careful... you're sounding like Sumitas... next thing you know you're going to tell me you bought all the Golden Missles in the sale
Big shoes to fill

pgardn 08-07-2008 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Big shoes to fill
You will have to change your drinking habits as well
as your shoe size.

I did not just type this. I did not.

Revidere 08-08-2008 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Curious... You usurp my largess here and yet feel compelled to demean the 60-70 hours a week I devote to bringing the game to fans and horseplayers on radio. Thanks for your input.
60-70 hours a week? What were you on vacation that week Steve? :D

He's just pissed you asked Mott about losing Miesque's Approval. Thought J.J. and Perotta were gonna have a Ron Burgundy moment(My favorite ATRAB moment, aside from the guy who said the horses who are slaughtered don't feel the gun shot to the brain. Like he polled them!)

TheSpyder 08-08-2008 04:42 PM
If some of you (you know who you are) don't stop this jibberish (biggest word I could come up with) I'll get my red headed wife of 25 years to post on here and then you'll really see some whining!

The show is awesome.

Spyder


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