In the end the horsemen are screwing both themselves and the game up. In the end a lot of horseplayers who dont have access to these tracks (CRC,CD,...etc) will permanently alienate them. I know on my end I dont even bother looking at CD entries or following their meet at all anymore. While I normally make a few trips to Calder by now, I have not gone once and have not made a single wager there yet. At some point if the horsemen at Calder smarten up and let out of state betting/adw's back into the game, I still probably wont bother. The quality of horses at CRC is beyond a joke, it might take a long time to fix the damage that has been done.

I hope the horsemen down here in Fla are happy with the result so far...they have all but destroyed horse racing down in S. Florida.

I applaud the owner of Ellis of basically telling the horsemen to go screw off. The guy cant run a business without out of state betting coming in, and the horsemen wont budge. I guess the horsemen would rather not run at all. Real smart move on the horsemen's end. Hopefully the McDonald's down in the Ellis area is hiring.

well said....there is going to be a price to pay for all this ADW/Horseman/Track crap that is going on and it just might be the the end of racing in many parts of the country. Next up is socal. Not sure when the sport is going to realize that its the customer who makes the business model work, not the service provider. No customer, no business. The are slowly driving us away. My handle last year, 132k, this year its just less then 4k. Hope these guys are happy.

I agree there is too much welfare (slot $) for horsemen.

At the same time, if ADW is the future, how can you criticize them for trying to get a bigger piece of that? And at the worst, what can happen? No more Ellis Park? It's not like there aren't other places to run or wager on.

Geary was screwed from the start. There will never be slots in KY because all the 4th generation politicians are all related to all the 4th generation fat dudes that run Keeneland. And slot machines are not in their interest. If there were going to be slots, they'd be there by now.

I don't know the numbers being talked about (at what point Churchill's ADW is sufficiently profitable in its eyes), but all anyone has done for the past year or so is repeatedly bash the "corporate" mentality of Churchill Downs as it relates to the company's poor treatment of the bettor/customer. Why all of a sudden is it assumed that it is the horsemen that are wrong in this dispute? Has anyone though that maybe the problem is that Churchill is treating the horsemen the same way it treats the bettor/customer?

"Too much" based on what calculus? Where do you think it should go instead?

Churchill's stock is down 40% since May 2nd, the start of the impasse.

They're being treated sufficiently poor enough.

What does Churchill's stock price have to do with who is right and wrong in this dispute?

Nothing other than to note Churchill is getting hurt. And who can really say the horsemen are being harmed? They can load a trailer and go to Chicago or Cincy.

Who is right and who is wrong on this deal? You tell me.

As my earlier post said, I don't know the specific numbers, so I can't offer an opinion as to precisely who is right and who is wrong. However, since there hasn't been much public negotiation of the $$ underlying the impasse, I fail to see how others are able to point a finger in one direction or another. My point was questioning why some on here seem intent on blindly blaming the horsemen for the impasse.

For the record, the horsemen competing at the meet are being hurt, as purses have been cut over 20%. Furthermore, it's not that simple to ship to run somewhere else (and both of the tracks that you mentioned have an even lower purse structure than Churchill), when your stable - and its employees and families - are based elsewhere. Do you know the cost of shipping these days, with the cost of gas?

I forgot about California. If it's the same group who are representing the horsemen at CRC,CD,LS,LAD.....then I would think they will recommend to the cali horsemen to take the same stance and destroy racing out there. Del Mar's meet is bad enough now with polytrack...tiny pools and cut purses would be horrendous on top of that.

I am in a similar position as you betting....I am not betting nearly as much as last year and I would say 90% of my betting is now at Belmont.

To me that implies Churchill's purses were overcompetitive.

What does it cost to move, say, 10 horses 300 miles? I'll guess $5,000. Is that close? Weren't these horses moving or shipping next week anyway?

No, that implies that not much money is being handled at River Downs and Arlington compared to Churchill.

I can't speak to the plans of the trainers. Some might have been going to Ellis, some to Arlington, some to Saratoga, some elsewhere. Some probably live in KY, so it's not as easy to just go someplace else. I thought you were suggesting that they could stay in KY and ship to race; round-trip, that can be pretty pricey, depending on the destination.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/200...-is-a-scratch/

Now the negotiating really begins...







It's far from over.

if the horsemen cave though wont that tell the other tracks what they should do to get their way?

It isn't like the ADWs are making money hand over fist. If you ask for more from their cut, you risk putting them out of business.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know all the percentages, but this is really a Twin Spires issue. As I understand the horsemen's position, because Churchill is simultaneously the host track and acting as the ADW (as opposed to a Youbet, for example), it's essentially getting an additional piece of the same pie (a piece that it would not get if the bet were placed through another ADW - and Churchill has prohibited other ADWs from taking its signal). The horsemen are asking Churchill to give up some portion of the piece that Churchill doesn't currently have. That seems to be fairly reasonable to me.

If that were true, you could bet the tracks on Youbet and TVG, no?

Churchill has prohibited Youbet and others from taking its signal; it is trying force players off other ADWs onto Twin Spires, so it can get both the ADW fee and what is essentially the host track fee. If the bet were through Youbet, Churchill would only get the host track fee. As I understand the issue, the horsemen are seeking part of the ADW fee that Churchill would be getting in addition to the host track fee.

The dispute is a national one not just with CDI. CDI has just made it worse than it needs to be by filing lawsuits as a delay tactic, refusing to negotiate, and cutting purses far beyond what was called for.

Do you have any clue of what you are talking about or are you just so biased against horseman that you ignore the issues?

All the tracks have to do is come to the table with a better deal. They refuse to deal with THG because they dont want the horseman to be united nationally. I cant believe that you guys dont understand the deals that sre asking us to take. Do you understand they want us to take less than half of what we get for regular simulcast and on track bets? Do you think it is a coincidence that handle goes up and purses go down? So we should sign a deal that is a horrible business deal for us because it is inconveinent for you? Maybe you should be asking the tracks why they think we deserve less money? Maybe you should ask CM if he thinks that it is a coincidence that Tracknet (which is CDI) is making tracks do the same thing they railed against TVG for? Or that CDI suddenly is so concerned with AWD'd since it is now operating one? Maybe you forgot that it was the horseman that pushed to open CA to ALL AWD's when CDI and Magna were trying to cut out everybody else.

Geary made a bad deal when he bought the track. He thought for some reasons that he could "turn it around" by ignoring all the issues that a track in an area with demographics like Evansville has. His insistence that the judge not granting an injunction against the horseman was the main reason that he was closing now, rings hollow. The law is very specific and this hearing was a formality. He was simply looking for a scapegoat and apparently has found one. Personally i dont like Ellis park and rarely run there. But for the people that have jobs there and the horseman stabled there who depend on it, I feel bad for.

You are kidding right? You think that running for the peanuts offered at River is a good option? Arlington's purses arent exactly close to on par with CD either.

Overall you'd think the fans would want to see higher purses. You'd think the runners would deserve a real slice of the pie instead of all of it going to the white shirts in their air conditioned corporate boxes. I mean, how many fans are there at Hialeah now ? None because there are no horses there.

I just dont see the point in what the horsemen are doing down here and the relationship with Fla tracks by the horsemen at CD. By locking up the signal at CRC to only FL residents is insane. The horsemen down here are killing themselves and Calder. They dont seem too eager to want to negotiate from what I have seen. They would rather watch the handle go down 75% and purses cut to nothing. Smart move.

I mean how screwed up is it that we cant bet CD down here in S. Florida? It's ridiculous that the signal is being withheld by the horsemen up there. From what I have read the tracks have been willing to negotiate a bit, but the horsemen are saying "it's this or nothing".

I am not saying that CD and CRC are 100 % innocent...but it seems they are willing to negotiate a bit, while the horsemen aren't.

The tracks refuse to sit down with our appointed negotiators. How is that willing to negotiate? They wont even sit in the same room as our reps and they sued them, naming them individually?

How about if they said that if you as a bettor could play the pick 6 at your home track with a 25% takeout but if you made the bet on the internet or through an ADW you had to accept a 50% takeout? Then when you balked they said ok we will give in a little, make it 49%. Sounds like a good deal to you?

For me it does. Lately I couldnt hit a pick six if you spotted me 5 winners and let me go "all" in the sixth.

While the ADW is beyond annoying.....whats worse is we cant bet CD down here...but correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that the CD horsemen's decision to block out S Fla from their signal. It's one thing if I cant get down on a race on xpressbet....usually I can drive to the track if I really want to bet. But with the CD situation I am completely screwed if i want to bet CD.

I also dont get what the Fla horsemen are trying to accomplish by keeping their signal locked in Fla only....makes zero sense. Is hurting them pretty damn bad with the purse cuts. Again...if they have a problem with adw's thats one thing.....but to block out everyone else is just stupid.

I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. I'm sure I don't know everything. I doubt you do either.

You say handle is increasing and purses decreasing. When did Churchill cut purses, before this THG battle obviously? What other places has this happened?

Look at Presque Isle Downs. There is a track that is basically living on slots subsidies. There is next to no handle even when the signal was available. The horsemen are fighting for more of the ADW handle there? Give me a break.

I certainly agree that the tracks are not innocent either. Tracknet is just as bad, and probably worse. The whole thing is a mess, and in the end the bettor gets fukked. Now, I'm not your typical guy does this for fun a few days a week. You'll have to excuse me if I don't feel much sympathy for the tracks or the horsemen.

In the end, the tracks should set the purses and horsemen either run there or they don't. They should be set well enough in advance (at least a year) so that plans can be made. It isn't much different for me. The tracks, with the state and whatever ADW they allow to cover them, set the takeout. I either play there, or I don't. It is my choice.

No, I'm not kidding. Not at all. And it is not as if Churchill isn't ending in a day or two anyway.

Look, if you need to travel, you travel.

If you were at Churchill, instead of going west to Henderson, go east.

If River is too cheap for you, keep on east until you hit Mountaineer.

If it's too cheap there, stop for deisel and head north or east for Presque, Philadelphia or a half dozen other places with better purses than Ellis would have offered anyway.

What else is there to do?

I assume you are aware that overnight purses at Calder were cut 20%.

And also that you are aware average daily total handle is down 72% at Calder from $2.7 million to about $750,000.

And yet you claim purse cuts are far beyond what was called for.

Please explain the math behind your claim.

Like I said.....



http://courierpress.com/news/2008/ju...art-next-week/

Your contention was that the horseman could simply ship to Chicago or Cincy when those places are running for signifigantly smaller purses, especially River. It will cost around $1500 to ship a horse to Philly or $1000 to go to Mountaineer. It is not without its costs to horseman and owners especially for the cheaper horses. Everything including fuel and hay and straw have increased dramatically in price yet we should be just fine running for less money? I dont understand where you think that this isnt a bad deal for horseman.

Again, what tracks were cutting purses before the standoff?

Look I am not a pro union guy by any means. But the horsemen should have the ability to have a negotiating group that wants uniformity accross the board. The stance of the THG is that all ADW's should have access and that we should be getting a fair share of the revenue especially when Tracknet is attempting to dominate the market to the detriment of all but Tracknet. You said that ADW's arent making that much money but is that really true? Setting up an ADW calls for little more than computers, a bank of phones, and a small office. They produce nothing. The issue as explained by CDI execs is that under our demands they would not be making that much money. But under their plans we will lose more money and that will grow as the handle continues to shift. Like it or not we are partners with the tracks. They hate to admit that as seen by their behavior. That is why the horsemans right to withold the signal exists. The tracks have that same right to withold the signal and they have done it quite often to meet thier demands, a right CD has used on many occasions to use the Derby as a battering ram to squeeze more money out of other tracks. In the end it is just business. Maybe it is bad business right now. Maybe it will chase more customers away. But if we cave now, which is the intention of not only CDI, and Geary, but most of the other tracks many which may be acting in collusion (against law by the way) things will never get better.

You are looking at this on an individual track basis. If we sign the deal that CDI offered, we will be taking more than a 40% cut our take of the only growth segment in the industry. Do the math. If we get 7% of on track and interstate simulcast handle and get 4% on ADW and internet wagers and the trend of handle flowing to ADW's and internet wagers continues where will we be? Do you think that handle will grow enough to offset the lesser percentage? The fact is that handle is not growing as much as it is switching from one mode of wagering to another. The fact that CDI has gotten into the ADW business in a big way and the fact that they will make a much bigger cut with an ADW bet makes horseman nervous. I mean as a business move it is a good move for CDI but as a business move it is a horrible move for us. Therefore you have a standoff. Frankly I think Geary had no intention of opening the meet because unless his lawyer is really optimistic or just plain stupid there was no chance of any judge granting him an injunction simply because the law is so specific. He is waiting for the slots train like everybody else, plain and simple.

I am certainly no fan of Tracknet.

The industry needs the fans to be able to bet any track with whichever ADW they want to bet with. ONE! Let them compete and try to offer the best service. Right now, the tracks are screwing us, the horsemen are screwing us, and the ADWs are screwing us.

As far as the ADWs making money, Youbet and TVG certainly are not. Maybe the ones that are just do a better job. Maybe they give bettors incentives to bet with them instead of having some company like TwinSpires or TVG rammed up our ass.

It seems to me everyone in this game is petrified of competition. Rather than improve the product and fight for the gambling dollars, they want handouts. It is getting really, really old.

What you say about the math may be true, but purses have not been cut. It seems THG is taking a stand on what might happen. As for the slots argument, I wish they would all go away. It is a bad deal for the player. It takes away any incentive to offer a good product and keeps tracks that should go away in business.

I'd like to know out of all the horsemen the best they could get for President is Rick Hiles. WTF?

I think there should definately be more unions. I've never worked for one so I know what it's like not to have respect in the workplace.

You post like one in this thread.