FAIR ENOUGH

True and if grasshopper was anything but a rat nag, he would have won a stake by now. He would have won one last year. The fact is, he is still eligible for nx2.

Tiago is a multiple graded stake winner. He has won a stake at three and four.

Grasshopper has won only a maiden and an allowance.

How can the two be compared?

There are more accomplished horses on a friday afternoon at presque isle downs.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

ftfy...

why do people here keep saying he has only won a maiden and an allowance? Since when is a grade 3 win considered an allowance?? Maybe I'm crazy but I could have sworn he easily won a stakes at Fair Grounds this year or am I really crazy??
(yeah, it was the Mineshaft Handicap...a grade 3...he won that. He is in fact a stakes winner.)

yes he did, i should have known that... then he was barley, BARLEY DEFEATED BY CIRCULAR QUAY

yeah? And what did he beat in that? Ive got to hear this.

Magna Graduate and not much else

magna graduate is the rip torn of stake horses. He is old and you know he is famous for something...you just cant think of what.

again i think your missing the point, but i guess i should not talk, cause i guess i miss the point a lot

No this makes your point even more off. Your original "point" was that maybe Grasshopper had soured between three and four and that he was in better form last year. well, if he did win a "stake" it was this year.

So what is your point?

finished 2nd to Invasor in the Donn?

Who is Barley?

Grasshopper's "huge" second in the weakly assembled Travers field was IMO further validation that Street Sense, despite the Derby win (in which he was lugging in badly the final 1/8th), was not particularly suited to 10f, as opposed to evidence that Grasshopper was improving leaps and bounds. Assuming this, it came as no shock that he lost the Super Derby at odds-on next out (or that Street Sense hung badly the final 1/8th of the BC Classic when trying to match strides with Curlin).

Put on the shelf afterwards, like most Lane's End colts, he wintered at the Fairgrounds for the stakes leading up to the New Orleans Handicap. And like those recent horses (eg Midway Road, Rock Slide, Patriot Act, Parade Leader, Alumni Hall, Crossword), with the exception of Mineshaft, he failed to progress significantly from his 3yo campaign, which had him ranked in the 2nd-tier at best.

Following the New Orleans, trainer Neil Howard typically uses the Ben Ali as a bridge to the Pimlico Special and NY handicaps, but this year, perhaps to avoid the Polytrack, he chose to start Grasshopper in the one-turn Westchester at Belmont, where he ran into that buzzsaw of McLaughlin's that ended up winning the Met Mile. At the time, Howard was quoted as saying he thought the colt, despite his modest success around two turns, was actually better suited to a flat mile. Given his pedigree, by the precocious 2yo and sprinter/middle distance 3yo Dixie Union out of a Mr. Prospector mare, this actually makes some sense.

Neil Howard, following that browbeating in the Westchester chose to stretch the colt back out to no avail in the Pimlico Special and Stephen Foster, but given Devine Park's lofty speed figures and subsequent exploits, a career geared towards extended sprints and flat miles still makes a lot of sense, just not necessarily at the Grade 1 level.

He could be the next Saarland.

While I don't think that much of Grasshopper, I'll give him a shot at whatever stakes race he enters at Saratoga this summer.. especially if he's at a decent price. I think he likes that track.

I basically agree with Rollo here.
Grasshopper was tremendously overrated after his run in the Travers. He ran close to Street Sense that day, but Street Sense was something of a hanger (athough obviously a very good hanger) unless he got his rail trip.
That day Grasshopper was allowed to lope along down the backstretch in :48.18 and 1:12.43. It wasn't at all shocking that Street Sense wasn't able to blow by him in the stretch considering those early fractions and the fact that Street Sense didn't get his ideal trip. Grasshopper also got recognition because he and Street Sense finished so far ahead of the rest of the field, but again this was the result of a the soft early fractions and the low quality of the rest of the starters. These are all of the reasons that I made a few bucks betting against Grasshopper in the Super Derby.

I don't know how much he really slipped from 3 to 4. I think he was just highly overrated at 3.

I think you are wrong here, and jcs is right.
This whole business about being "fully cranked" is a usually a bunch of nonsense in my opinion, but to the extent that a trainer can try to have a horse peak on a particular day, I find it nearly impossible to believe that the connections would not want a horse to be at a peak for the Travers.
The connections wouldn't know for sure what the field would be for a race until just days before the race. Do you really think that any trainer would not try to have a horse at his best for the Travers, simply because he guesses weeks in advance that it might not be a great field? That seems unlikely.

Alumni Hall didn't make his debut until he was 5 - Neil Howard did a great job getting him to the races and making him a stakes winner, given the colt's injury history. Rock Slide only made a few starts at 3 and actually he did improve as a 4 year old, winning at least one stakes that I can think of. He was a late developer; he wasn't a top class horse, but he was a nice colt and he was hard-knocking. Patriot Act didn't even improve from 2 to 3, but eventually he did win a stakes race as a 4 year old.... Are you claiming Neil Howard is not a good trainer?

oh, you've sold me now since you used all caps, that definitely strengthens ANY arguement.:rolleyes:

He was never that good. He ran a big race on Travers day. It happens. He was never able to build on it. Too bad but it is what it is.

are you referring to Street Sense or Grasshopper?

I did mean Grasshopper but if the shoe fits...

SS was a nice colt who became a monster when running at CD. He looked good handling GH in the Travers but subsequent efforts by both colts have done nothing to cover them in glory.

This isnt 1968 its 2008. The travers isnt that big of a deal anymore. Still, its a nice race to win but with stake races in the fall, the BC is the ultimate goal.

Nafzger looked at the nominations list weeks in advance and he pretty much knew weeks in advance who wasnt coming meaning Hard Spun and Curlin. That being the case, who did he have to worry about? And if he didnt have anything to worry about, why crank him to his very best when his very best wasnt necessary???????????

Again, I think you might be overestimating exactly how much control a trainer has over when he or she can magically call on a horse's peak performance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume for the moment that you are right and they really can do that. Are you really telling me that you think Nafzer wanted Street Sense to be less than his best in the Travers? No way.

And if by some miracle you actually are right about that, I guess the Breeders' Cup is killing the sport more than even Breeders' Cup haters like me thought it was.

[quote=miraja2]Again, I think you might be overestimating exactly how much control a trainer has over when he or she can magically call on a horse's peak performance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume for the moment that you are right and they really can do that. Are you really telling me that you think Nafzer wanted Street Sense to be less than his best in the Travers? No way.

And if by some miracle you actually are right about that, I guess the Breeders' Cup is killing the sport more than even Breeders' Cup haters like me thought it was.[/QUOTE]

It is killing the sport, no doubt about it and I share in your hate of it.


Nafzger is a master horseman and having a horse peak at just the right time is what he is payed to do. And he has proven time and again that that is the way he handles his horses. Is it full proof? No, of course not. But if you dont think the type of regiment the trainer employs will have an effect on the type of performance he wants out of the horse, well, we will just have to disagree.

As for the Travers thing, again, horse racing has changed dramatically even in the last couple of years. These arent deep fields and the horses only have so many races that they can run. You dont prepare for the "travers" like you do for the "derby" or the "bcc". The travers last year was no better than a grade 3 in traditional fields and Nafzger knew it long before the race. Again, why would he crank him up for mediocre competition regardless of the name of the race????????????????

Street Sense was simply not that dominant of a horse that he would crush a decent allowance horse without momentum or a stamina edge. In the Travers he had neither and had to win by a slim talent edge. In the derby SS had a perfect ride and perfect pace and was facing mostly 8.5 furlong race horses.

So the derby had fewer 10f horses than the travers? I dont think that is what you meant but if you could clairify.

Street Sense could crush a decent allowance field. Dont be mistaken.

I never claimed anything about Grasshopper...you said he never won anything but a maiden and allowance and that was clearly an incorrect assertion. He could have beaten 3 cows, 2 goats, and 5 members of this board running in the Mineshaft but he still won a stakes.

street sense is retired.

And the Travers WAS a decent allowance field. :rolleyes:

dude you are so wrong about the travers, HE WAS FULLY CRANKED. i dont even get why your still arguing it, it was the main goal after the preakness loss, why do you think they skipped the belmont, and prepped for 500k less in the dandy...

Yes, he was fully cranked to face grasshopper sightseeing and cp west. LOL.

Why do i even engage?

And if it was necessary, Nafzger would have had him ready to crush it.

Was the BC Juvey a decent allowance field because he looked like he crushed that.

Nafzger had him cranked for teh BC Juvey :D

you should not engage, anyone saying a horse was not fully cranked for the travers, just does not understand the game

I actually agree with you that he was probably fully cranked for the Travers. . . Nafzger's famous for preparing his horses to fire on big days. . . BUT, I don't think the Street Sense we saw in the summer and fall was the same one we saw in the BC Juvie and the Derby.

This is indeed a harsh indictment coming from such a knowledgable contributor. Your expertise shines through with every post in any topic.

i agree with that, but for someone to sit here and continue to say a horse was not fully ready for the travers is a joke in my opinion, and makes me wonder what that person really knows about this game

Thats fine, but thats not as big of a joke as saying that Grasshopper was some kind of monster at three that somehow soured over the winter between three and four.

But hey, Nafzger routinely gets his horses all ready to fire their best when they have to face the cp wests of the world.

nafzger gets his horses as ready as they need to be. Thats why he is the horseman that he is.

If you think he had him ready to fire his best shot against cp west, sightseeing and grasshopper i have to disagree. But...thats nothing i havent already said.