It was the long Branch at Monmouth and the Leonard Richards at Delaware Park the next day...both grade 3s. Ran 3rd at Monmouth and 2nd at Delaware Park the next day.

Actually, he caught my attention that year because we owned a Suave Prospect that we had privately purchased from Farnsworth Farms. They had a ton of horses, so the tag he ran for was kind of irrelevant. They ran Imperialism for $25K as a 2YO.

In Golden Man's first race off the claim, he won a NW1X allowance score at Gulfstream, in very fast time. He was super impressive in that race, defeating subsequent Lexington Stakes winner Coin Silver. Then his owners at the time (Sandy Goldfarb and Michael Dubb) supplemented Golden Man to the Preakness for $100,000, but he was excluded from the race when it oversubscribed (Giacomo didn't scare anyone off). He ran third in the Peter Pan, where he was only 5-1 in the wagering. The rest, as they say, is history ...

I wasn't talking about the owner holding the trainer accountable. While that might be one side, it's the other side that can turn out to be something many did not expect. You've got politicians, well known leaders of commerce and industry, high profile business leaders, and so on. If you are going to make this business dangerous to them, they will look to insulate themselves in any way, shape or form they can -- and for some, leaving the business will be the result. Sure, exceptions and norms. But you will see many drastic negative ramifications.

Owners certainly do need to hold trainers accountable. I've had trainers race back horses quicker than the norm -- one week (once) and two weeks (a few times). I questioned the trainer. I asked what I thought were the right questions. But I didn't go down there an inspect the horse myself, nor did I look for an independent second opinion from a vet. How much can and should we as owners do? It's the slippery slope.

Eric

I don't expect that you go down there and do an inspection. For that matter, I've had the occasion to be at the barn and my trainer has tried to explain to me a problem (slight filling, for example) that he preceives with a horse that I own. I can rub the horse's leg, but I'm not familiar enough with the situation to appreciate the issue he perceives to be there. That's why I hire the trainer in the first case. But if he proposed to run a horse back on one day's race, I'm sure going to have some questions. If he tells me not to worry about it, and the horse breaks down, I think we would have a real problem.

Given Dutrow's history with phony works in NJ, I wonder if this horse actually had all the worked allegedly attributed to him. For a horse that had already had two races this year, four works (every six days) since his last race on May 23 sure seems like a lot.

I agree. Do we draw a line though? Two days? Two days once a year? 1 week? And so on. Regardless, I agree.

Eric

I do not think that you can penalize/suspend the owners. Some stables are lucky if they break even, now they are going to be at risk of suspensions or finacial penalties. It would just lead to people defecting from the sport. I am not saying that they are 100% innocent, but the trainers are the ones who know what the real story with the horses are. They are the ones who should have some sort of accountability.
But, the bottom line is that it would be impossible to prove anyway. These guys get slaps on the wrist for confirmed positives. Now you are going to throw the book at someone on speculation? Really what could the sport do, suspend a guy everytime a horse breaks down on a drop? Somehow if it could have been caught before the race by the track vet (who is accountable too), then maybe there could be some sort of fine/penalty levied.
It is just so fustrating, because today event just seemed so blatantly obvious.

A great catch of a real travesty and tragedy by the Spyder. How can racing allow 2 races in 3 days ? I'm just dumbfounded and shocked again.

My third wife used to say that to me a lot.

Did you know a horse named Shannon's Hope raced 5 times in 8 days in 1963 at Northampton in Massachusettes? On a half-mile racetrack no less.

Shannon's Hope won all 5 starts.

If it weren't for Dutrow's travails, folks would have to find something else to carp about.

Didn't Bel Air Sizzle do roughly the same thing a few weeks ago and run solidly in both races?

I have seen this done before when a horse was pulled up for some equipment reason etc...in the first race, or just won so easily that the animal did not exert itself. But right now with all the crap going on... if the horse had won, it would have been a notable wow he knows his horses.

But the animal broke its leg. And yes the outcome is very significant. It was a risky move by a guy who does care to grasp what has now become a snowballing situation. Right or wrong.

I guess it's glass-half-full vs glass-half-empty -- but I still think it's hard to make a case for Golden Man as a real up-and-comer...

I'd go along with that if they snuck him in for a tag in the career debut, or tried to sneak him in for a tag after a dud. But Golden Man bombed in his debut for $50K. Dropped to $32K and bombed again. Was unimpressive next time at $25K. And finally broke through the maiden ranks in his second try at the $12.5K level. After that impressive win they still didn't think enough of him to go any further than $25K NW2L.


I'm not sure whether Coin Silver panned out to be a real barometer of talent.

That he was supplemented to the Preakness and went off at 5-1 in the Peter Pan are both interesting -- but the results of the races he ran in are more interesting. He finished third in the Peter Pan and the Long Branch -- both before the back-to-back efforts [the Long Branch was the first of those].

Hardly super exciting.

And the horse that won that year's Peter Pan? Oratory -- never ran again after suffering a broken bone in a subsequent workout. Only five career starts and none spaced closer than 22 days. I'd call him a real up-and-comer -- but what do we blame his subsequent non-career on?

but here lately, we haven't had to look very far, or very hard, to find things we have issues with. i guess i'm always amazed tho when someone gives jokers like dutrow and asmusses a pass. it's not rumor or innuendo about these two--or biancone--it's a many times over fact that these guys cheat. they're blatant, unrepentant, and sadly, employed.

Was he a superstar, no. However, Coin Silver did win a Grade II, and Golden Man also beat Frankel's subqesuent SW High Limit in one of the back-to-back stakes. By the fall of the same year in which he supplemented to the Preakness, Dutrow had him back in for $40,000 claimers. Dutrow runs a lot of horses back on short rest, and it invariably seems to take a lot out of them.

Good horse, bad horse -- no offense, but not really the issue. Dutrow does tend to run horses back quick. A lot? Some? Often? All relative terms. He does it more often than most other trainers. I hear some trainers give him credit for trying and note that after he wheels him back he gives them a more normal time off routine.

I've others say this is horrible and comments as foolish as "need the money" or something along those lines. Doesn't matter!

This one did not go well. If every other one had, this one was one too many. I think the immediate reaction in the hysterical world we see today is going to be for various people to back peddle and cover their butts.

Eric

For me it's simple, You shouldn't run a TB twice in 48 hours. Standardbreds are a completely different subject. I do think sound horses are raced too infrequently unfortunately there aren't too many sound TB's..

I just had this disussion with DrugS we claimed one a few weeks ago and he called me to tell me he was in great shape and as sound as could be. I told him to give the horse 30 days so we could race him at the same price tag some stupid rule about having to move them up in Pa if you re race them within 30 days of your claim.. I thought it was a stupid idea to risk racing him sound at a level he might not be able to win, when in 12 more days he would could easily win at the same claiming level. Basically the rules keep me and DrugS from re entering him not his condition. If he is sound after the race and we still have him I have no issue wheeling back in 8 to 14 days. He is a race horse, if they are sound, let'em race.

As indicated in another post in this thread, this was the 50th starter that Dutrow had back on 1-7 days rest, according to stats in yesterday's DRF (I'm not sure of the sample time period, but in thinking 2007-08). Let's not forget that this was the guy who through the whole Triple Crown season kept telling the media that the doesn't like to run horses back on short rest.

To be fair how many starters has Dutrow had?

Best of luck.

Luck who needs luck I have DrugS... If we lose I will make him pay the bills.. i only win he is in for the losses

Point taken, but the talk would have been negative too. It would have been about the magic potion he must have to bring a horse back 2 days later and win. So to be fair it really is a no win situation for him.

He's had about 350 so far this year. Even if we assume that he had 700 last year, it seems to me that 5% of his starters on such short rest is a pretty high number. In NY, the only other trainers that I can think of running a significant number of horses back on such short rest are Contessa and Leo O'Brien.

If you do something 5% of the time it is deemed infrequent..So are you saying 95% of the time his horses race on what we deem appropiate rest? I would argue 5% of the time is never something you can label as abusive.

Is that Top Royelle?

Freddy, 5% is cause for concern. We're talking 7 or less days for a start, right ? I don't think that is ever appropriate as in 0%.

I didn't say it was abusive, but even if it's only 5%, I think it is still far above the norm.

Hopefully that mare never sees claimers again.. We are hoping to breed her next year especially if she wins a few bucks for us in allowance races. DrugS likes her page and apparently the sire is coming on and had a G2 winner this weekend. Her dam side isn't half bad either.

We claimed some low level claimer a few weeks ago as well that who I was referring to..

I told Doug the same thing..Good luck with her. I enjoyed the time she was with Chuck and was sad to see her claimed, even for the $22K tag, which wasn't half bad. Always hoped to see her on the lawn at AP, but wasn't meant to be.

Why they are race horses? When they come out of a race in great shape and act well the next few days it isn't ridiculous to race them back quickly, just not all the time.. If a horse makes 20 starts in a year and 1 of the 20 is on 4 days rest(5%) its hardly a offensive crime against an animal IMO

Thx will see if it is meant to be.. DrugS and I will be getting a few together as long as it's fun.. I am not married to any horse but I can't seem to get rid of DrugS..

Please find me a horse that makes 20 starts a year that isn't racing at a place like Finger Lakes.

Just looked through the PP's from Belmont for wedsnesday and thursday.. Only Executive Search but of the 18 races most of the races feature horses that couldn't have possibly started 20 times nmaidens etc.

I think you missed my drift. I wasn't asking you to necessarily find me an example. I was saying that I'd like to have one in our stable.

Her pedigree is an interesting though light on the US commercial side. Royal Applause has had an unusual sire profile as almost all of his better progeney are colts and geldings. Ticker Tape being an obvious exception.

It's pretty crazy when you realize that not only did Colin retire undefeated, but the schedule he was given, and the weight he carried was downright amazing. (he raced multiple times off 3 or 4 days rest)

Remember, the Derby Trial used to really be a KY Derby prep and was run on the Tuesday of Derby week.
Man O War began is career on June 6th and returned on June 9th. His third start was June 21st and his 4th was June 23rd! He then ran on July 4th and was laid off til Saratoga. There he ran on Aug 2nd, 13th, 23rd and 30th.
His schedule was nothing out for the ordinary for a colt (even a top class colt) of his era.
I'm sure with a bit more time and a copy of Champions I could find plenty more.

As for Golden Man. He was (is) a useful race horse but was hardly a star in the making. Most "good looking" 3yo's end up in modest company at best. The horse that nearly beat Lion Heart in NJ a few years back broke down for a $5k tag last summer.

:( My Snookie's Boy

My question is. How can it hurt a horse to have at least 2 weeks between starts ? It can certainly help a horse. Especially Unrequited.

I have no idea if the horse in question broke down because of the short rest or not. Certainly he wouldn't have done so in his stall, but that means nothing.
He probably would be alive now had he not raced but was he going to break next time anyhow? Can a potentially fatal "pending injury" be fixed with 2 weeks off? Based on the worktab, he was trying to get the horse claimed and kick the broken can down the lane to the next unsuspecting trainer. Now, I agree that that's neither "nice" nor entirely humane but Rick isn't the only one guilty of such stuff. It happens all the time and is done by elite barns as well as modest claiming operations.

I think I could get a deal on Stormy Atlantic at 25 to 30k its a nice match.. Will see