You are missing the point. I understand that they are big outfits because they win. But they arent the only trainers that can win. It may seem like it on the surface but it does have a lot to do with attitude. Because if you continue to employ trainers who repeatedly get suspended and have violations than you are doing nothing more than condoning his actions. If owners were serious about "cleaning up" the game they could start by sending horses elsewhere. THAT would get these guys attention quicker than 6 month suspensions.

Just win baby "al davis"

Actually it wont

You are 100% correct here. The owners that tolerate this stuff need to be called out, starting with those that employ guys like Dutrow and Asmussen. But has a single member of the media asked Jess "I Want to Clean Up the Game" Jackson why he uses Asmussen as his trainer? If they have, I must have missed his response.

There will always be another new owner with fresh money looking to win NOW.. Owners can't and will never legislate themselves you are being completely naive.. You go to Disney after you win the superbowl.. Who would send horses to a guy who isn't on the cutting edge and ahead of the curve.. Drugs aren't always the reason why these guys win more.. Maybe its a hyberbaric chamber maybe its swimming a horse maybe its running them up hills in Maryland.. Chuck there are only a few elite trainers who can offer an owner with unlimited funds unlimited super care and conditioning..

masking agents dont work anymore. How many times will you bring up the "mystery" masking agent scam?

I hear trainer Charles Simon is on the short list for IEAH replacement for Dutrow.

Which is why the game is so screwed up and no amount of federal intervention or central command can change it. There is a difference between being on the cutting edge and doing illegal things. Unfortunately it seems like the lines have blurred so much that people cant see the difference and worse dont care. Any trainer can offer an owner with unlimited funds these things Freddy. Swimming, hyperbaric, off track training...these things are available to anyone if they are given the funds. These guys are not staying big despite the bad press because they give gastrogard. Owners stay there because they are too insecure or egotistical to admit they dont care HOW they are winning. You cant expect every big owner to have a moral conscience but it would be nice to see one.

Chuck...new Jockey for Big Brown when you take over?

Bringing Bailey out of retirement but he cant use the whip

HEY not fair

some of us lose because the jockey is an idiot:confused:, some of us lose because the trainer is using designer:cool:drugs
can't I lose because of the mystery masking agent scam?? :D:rolleyes:

Well we know the Shiek doesn't use drugs in Dubai..lol

If you find out what the mystery is be sure to let us know

How is the intentional, sabotage, contamination aspect going to be dealt with? 24 hour security? Cost? The end is desireable, I agree with you -- but the means are just not feasible.

OTOH, if this horse came back at some massive level, the highest ever seen -- what exactly are we talking about here? 100% intentional in order to cash a ticket, knowing the horse would come up positive, giving up the purse and knowing you'll only get a "first offense" hit because you've never had a problem in KY?

Eric

Yes, this is very much a problem.

Eric

Do they use whips on the camels?

Would someone please give Chuck some f'n horses so he has less time to post on this site.

Why would anyone knowingly want to lose money?

Why don't any of these racing scribes ask Dutrow to explain how this horse was given that much bronchodilating medication? If you gave that much albuterol or salbuterol to a human being their heart would be going so fast you might be breaking indoor speed records after they had their massive heart attack.

Don't you think this is getting a little too personal? We all know you are a douche bag but we aren't calling you that every five minutes.

Early leader for Best Post of the Day.

Thanks for making me laugh Andy...

I am pretty sure Chuck is well aware of my true intentions and thoughts for our future involvement in racing. Trust me he knew who it was coming from and how it was meant..

As far as being a douche bag your on the money as usual
Scab

Hey I keep the owners that lose money. The ones I make money always fire me...

Even if the human weigh 1200 lbs?

Well if that is the case, fine, but still don't think it was something that needed to be said. Wasn't a necessary comment, nor true comment for that matter.

Great comeback on the end there....

I have one of those mobile internet things now. I am on my way to Taco Bell for my pre race meal before I saddle the worst horse i ever trained in the 2nd. And she actually may have a shot. Talk about bad races. The 2nd at CD today may be the worst race ever put on by a major racing association.

Now that is a special talent

It is interesting that the levels were twice the allowable limits

Good looking out....


Freddy Mo dont know he messin with the Flip Flop posse.....

Chuck, while I agree with you, as I've said -- this is not just an "owner" problem. You cannot expect one aspect of the industry -- a billion dollar industry -- to self police and govern itself to certain standards, when the remainder of the industry does not and will not have to. This is no different than merely cutting off one of Hydra's heads.

If you want owners to act with moral conscience, than you must have integrity in the other aspects of the game.

In addition, I use trainers who win races and they range from not one positive test in a 25-30 year career (in one case), to trainers who have had a clenbuterol positive (10 years ago I think), and others. And you know what? Those guys take the heat too. That doesn't give you immunity.

I have a trainer who IMO is a top trainer, an excellent horseman. Almost 30 years on the backstretch and he's never had a positive test. Not one. A friend of mine claims a horse for 20k and the horse goes nowhere after a couple of starts. The trainer won't drop him to where he can win, the excuses start. Third start off the claim he finishes 5th to a horse from my trainer's barn (not my horse). My friend's trainer looks at the form and says "oh yeah, it's a _(trainer's name)_ horse, well you can't beat him, we know what he's doing" -- on and on about my trainer. Not one positive and people "just know" he's doing something.

Why is it not about questions like -- How about picking a trainer who wins races? How about cut the BS, check your ego at the door, and drop your horse to where he can be competitive? Yes, I know it cuts both ways, but who are we blaming here and who are we looking at to solve the problem? It's not just "the owners".

People who are in this business, who spend time on the backstretch, in the race office, etc. -- they know that everyone is doing something. Don't ask owners to do something that other participants in the industry are not willing to do themselves.

Eric

Yeah, it is. We should have a poll as to the motivation, explanation, etc.

Eric

How dangerous is that level of medication to the horse?

Why? It's like saying that because there may be crooked lawyers in Washington, then I have the right to steal from my clients here in Albany? I fail to see the connection. Either you have a moral conscience, or you don't.

I agree with Eric on this one.. How is an owner to know a trainer is currently cheating.. If I give a horse to trainer am I there to see what the trainer is doing? And why is it that a trainer can't change there training or cheating ways? In all walks of life people are given multiple chances to correct the mistakes that they have been made accountable for..

No, it's not like saying that at all. Perhaps it is to you, and that's fine, but if it was like saying that to me then I would have said that.

The bottom line is that you are not going to force or guide with an invisible hand -- Jess Jackson and preclude him from giving horses to Steve Asmussen. Those who feel he is a hypocrite will feel that way. He runs his business the way he wants to. I think people can still do that here in this country. Boycott his wines, don't bet on his horses, whatever we see fit, we should certainly do. But the breeders want him to buy their horses. The stallion managers want him to buy, the mare owners want him, everyone in this industry wants him -- and that's the economics that I see driving this sport and industry.

Give me unform medication rules, level playing field, zero tolerence, whatever, etc. -- and I'll pick trainers based upon absolute. Until then, I am picking trainers who fit my business model -- trainer who win races or who I think can win races, who I think are good horsemen and excellent trainers, and who fit within my criteria of moral conscience. Everyone listens to their own moral conscience.

Blame it all on the owners and let that be your solution and see how long before these problems get resolved.

Eric

I'll agree that you can't always know what your trainer is doing. And people should be given a chance to learn from thir mistakes, but how many chances to they get, and "I don't mean one of those major-league baseball Steve Howe kind of last chances."

According to ARC records, Dutrow has now been fined/suspended four times in the past year alone (two Bute overages in FL, suspension in NJ stemming from the Wild Desert affair, and now the most recent incident in FL). It doesn't look like he's changed his ways. Yet, has a single major owner of his taken a horse from him because of this? If not, they condone/tolerate the behavior, plain and simple.

Somebody, anybody, tell me why this won't work:

1. Extend the absolute liability rule to owners.
2. Suspend violating owners from running. Fine them as well
3. Require owners to transfer horses out of a suspended trainer's barn before they can run.

I certainly haven't blamed it all on the owners, as there is plenty of blame to go around. But I don't think you can deny that the ones who knowingly employ the cheating trainers aren't part of the problem.

Clenbuterol goes in the feed tub, right?

Is it possible then that feed tubs got mixed up?

Is it possible someone did up the feed and then someone else did it up again?

With 100 horses in the barn, mix ups occur.

Even if it was a mix up, Rick should pay the price..... no excuses.