What am I missing? His horse tested positive for a drug overage....coincidentally after running a remarkably improved race. Are you suggesting the test was incorrect?

Without offering an opinion on the specifics of this case, why does it always seem that we are more concerned about the "due process" rights of the cheaters than the honest horsemen that they are putting out of the business?

While I totally agree with this....I would also like to mention the honest horseplayers that are also being put out of business. Cheating is a disgustingly self-centered activity that is destroying this game.

i was confused as to how larry jones helped oaklawn at all, cheating or not.

but larry jones wears a white cowboy hat, surely he's one of the good guys? :cool:

There are no good guys from Hopkinsville.

I agree, but little is done about it. I've often thought that industry leaders, totally obsessed with the casual fan's view of the sport, are afraid to crack down on cheaters. (There was an interesting article in the NY Times on this subject as it relates to track and field - a sport which does impose real penalties, where each suspension/banishment is viewed by some as only reinforcing the notion that the sport is filled with cheaters.) In this age where racing is covered in the mainstream media as a niche sport (most papers don't have a racing beat writer), my sense has been that, if a well-known trainer was sent down, it might be a front page sports story in papers like the Louisville C-J, Lexington H-L, Albany Times-Union, the Saratogian and few others. Whatever minimal damage occurs in the eyes of the casual viewer would be made up in spades by the honest horsemen and gamblers who would invest more $$ in what they perceived to be a sport more on the up-and-up.

Pyramist: 74

Snowy: 22

Stoney: 95

The positive hasn't yet been confirmed.

Yes, tests can be incorrect. The racing jurisdictions know it, as the procedure for split sample testing to eliminate laboratory error as a cause for a positive, and as confirmation of a positive, is built into the system.

The only reason the public knows of this positive is because the owner decided to talk about it.

The track reps refused to talk about it with the press, as the case is still pending and the positive hasn't been confirmed - which if/when it is, will then lead to a hearing, and then to a decision by the part of the racing jurisdiction as to guilt or innocence.

I personally will wait until he's found guilty before calling Larry Jones a cheater.

But you go right ahead.

I reread the thread....I never called Larry Jones a cheater. Don't put words in my mouth to suit your agenda.

I will reiterate what I did say.....I believe the people who cheat, whoever they are, are destroying this game.

As I read the articles, they don't seem to be disputing that the horse had an excessive amount of clenbuterol in his system; rather, they seem only to be questioning how it got there.

Damn, I agree!

Someone said about Larry Jones, "He has been a real boost to the Oaklawn meet. I know many of you don't even recognize that but Larry has made a real difference for us fans."

You then said, "I agree, trainers who cheat do a lot for the fans......they steal money from them."

You're right - how foolish of me to have possibly thought you were referring to Larry Jones in your comment about trainers who cheat ;)

I think it must be a high positive, because the owner is so vocal. But Jones is asking for the retest, so maybe only borderline?

There was a trainer in the past year or two, who appealed a drug charge, had the sample retested, then suddenly the charge were dropped and the jurisdiction refused to talk about the result of the retest? Anyone remember this situation?

I would wait until the final test is in ... Jones does have a quarter of a century of cleanliness ..

OT a bit, but I remember a horse back in the 60's that came back positive for bute ... The trainer swore up and down nothing was administered to the horse so vociferously, and then tests came back just as loud positive, that someone got creative and quarantined and monitered this horse ... Still positive ...

Turned out the horse was manufacturing a substance that mimicked bute all by himself ... Very weird ... The horse's name was Star Ice, and I believe he was banned from racing because of this ...

I don't really care what his supposed record is. He gets form reversals on horses at all class levels that make him look shady to me. Because the reversals come with horses he's had all along - it doesn't get the same reaction that it would if the reversals came 1st off a claim or with a 1st time trainer switch.

An overage is overage. It's like when you are driving on the highway and you try to drive as fast as you can without driving fast enough to get picked up.

In some places the cops tend to let you can get away with more than others. In some situations you can have a guy pass you going 100 mph and you speed up 10 mph because you know if they get anyone - it will be the other guy first.

However, you're playing with fire...and sooner or late you'll get caught. It may take many years - but it will happen.

To me - the overage isn't a big deal - my opinion has already been formed by seeing enough of the guys horses.

The big deal here (at least to me anyway) is you have an owner who wants to make this out to be a case of sabotage!

Agreed--an overage is just that ... But as far as the form flip flops, can you consider that in 25 years with these dramatic improvements he still comes clean ??? Or are you suggesting he is that good ...

The guy used Clenbuterol--basically a brochodilator if I am not mistaken ...Legal stuff in legal proportions ... Nothing has been released about how much over the overrages are ... If they were minor, could that said horse suddenly inhale the competition ???

Admittedly, I have not followed the Jones profile like you have ... But I would prefer to wait out the subsequent testing although you make a case, as do those who see his record compared to other more busted trainers, and make a case for a misshap or even a frame job ...

I do agree that the owner was a bit florid in his denial, but the timing ...

wheres the fatman when you actually need a cycling analogy?

I think more than half of competitive cyclists claim to suffer from exercise related asthma, so that they can take a certain amount of bronchodilator.

they probably know all the good masking agents too.

The worst part of this is now the major media outlets have free reign to splash news of a failed drug test for a horse by Eight Belles trainer.

well, why not? it all happened. if racing doesn't want this kind of black eye, they should have taken steps long ago to keep it from happening--rather than smacking wrists and writing inconsequential fines.

What kind of fine or penalty exactly do you want? You guys seem to want blood but if this is the guys first violation in 25 years what exactly should happen to him? We dont know for sure but the medication in question is a legal drug that was probably found in a trace level above the allowable level. Calling him a cheater is a bit harsh especially considering his record. I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals. But this is hardly the smoking gun. I would like to know what "racing", outside of having a better system of testing and being a bit more open about what is happening with that testing, can do to avoid having positive tests?

"I admit I am a little skeptical about Jones and his seemingly meteroic rise from Ellis Park and his often strange form reversals."

You are only a little skeptical? LOL. I know you are being politically correct. I am more than a little skeptical. As you said, having a slight overage with chlenbuterol is not that big of a deal. I'd like to know what Jones is using in addition to chlenbuterol. I know it ain't oats and water.

It's funny how these dead-average trainers like Art Sherman win at a 10-12% clip for 20 years and then all of a sudden start winning at 30%.

I don't know Larry Jones at all -- but I think people here are skating on the very same thin ice as the uneducated media. First, if this was a clentbuterol positive, let's wait for the facts. Trace level, drastic, whatever. Second, this is a perfectly legal drug -- PERIOD. Whether you like it or not -- LEGAL. Used everyday all over the backstretch. He used it to close maybe, and he'll pay the price. For those who know jump up and say "See, I told you so, here's the proof" -- no, you didn't tell anything other than show you are being moronic.

Third, the only people who would tie everything that ever appeared skeptical or cynical from Jones to this minor infraction, are showing their complete lack of knowledge about this game. I know -- everybody "just knows" -- yeah, been there, done that.

As far as the form reversals, drastic change in #'s, etc. -- this has nothing to do with a clenbuterol positive. Please. You want to say that where there is smoke there is fire -- great go ahead. There are plenty of trainers who have gradual increases in results, and others who have drastic ones. There are plenty of answers, some valid, some not. Drugs? Sure, in some cases -- those who know can look at the stats and certain trainers who went from low teens to high 20's. OK. But others -- there are valid, perfectly acceptable reasons . . . but not to those who need to lay blame, find guilt, and have to find the smoking gun. Did anyone think Jones wasn't using clenbuterol? What % of trainers aren't?

God forbid a popular trainer here, well liked, etc. had a clenbuterol positive. I am sure the story would be much different.

Eric

i wasn't talking about jones specifically. it seems that every time something happens like this, there are folks who would rather it all go away, rather than have bad press. there are cheaters in this sport, some are very high profile, with top horses on the track. but now larry jones is in the mix, and some don't want to face the fact that his horse tested over. how it happened, i don't know. but this sport allows folks like steve asmussen and rick dutrow, with countless black marks on their record, continue to do business as usual.

so, my point in the post you replied to was that it's not the media's fault if they have a story. it's this sports fault for not taking the whole drug issue more seriously-both with what should and shouldn't be allowed, as well as WHO should still be allowed.

i'm waiting, as i'm sure you are, for exactly what kind of overage they are talking about. we all know some horses are given legal meds that must have cleared by race day, and don't. now, if this is a microscopic amount, considering jones' complete lack of past positives, i'd say he should be treated lightly since it's a first offense--but only if BOTH parts of that are true.

regarding what 'racing' can do, for starters they can show the worst repeat offenders the door. maybe the rate of positives would drop with their departure.

Excellent point. Those who want it to "go away" are being very short sighted and are very much being part of the problem. There are cheaters in this sport and they must be dealt with. On one hand you have the attitude of not being able to catch Al Capone for murder and everything else, so you get him for tax evasion. OK, I see the need. OTOH, I just read in the paper that a guy I went to school with plea bargained for 13 months and a $7500 fine -- for bribing a public official with a $4300 payment. No mention or closure on the charges where he bribed another public official $250,000, or the $100,000, or the free addition on a home, and so on.

Those who want to lablel Jones as public enemy # 1, lifelong cheater, I told you so, etc. -- very transparent. Those who don't want to face the reality that he got a clenbuterol positive -- guess what? Also, very transparent. However, your point is excellent in that it shows both origins of both problems. Well, different origin, same problem.

Eric

What's not surprising is that the guys who are the big cheaters are usually the same guys who are always getting the overages. The reason is obvious. These guys are always pushing the envelope. They want to take every edge they can get whether it's with legal or illegal drugs.

What some of these guys will do is keep slightly increasing the dose of a legal drug or a milkshake until they get hit with an overage. That way they pretty much know what they can give without getting a positive. The problem is that different horses metabolize at different rates, so if they try to cut it too close they may come back with a positive. That is probably how Doug O'Neil got that positive earlier this year.

It would be also interesting to find out what sample(s) tested positive, urine, blood, or both.

Unless it was already stated elsewhere...

I think every sport, business, indusrty, etc would rather the story just go away than have bad press, no? I mean is the NFL thrilled they have Spygate? Was baseball happy to have to issue the Mitchell report? I agree that racing on the whole does a poor job of spinning the negative, usually no one says anything, but where is the outrage at the NFL when Shaun Merriman gets a 4 game suspension for steroids? Did he not "cheat" the bettors who bet the the opposing teams? I'm not condoning anything but saying that there is a strong possibility that this positive was not intentional (Squires is seeing ghosts and maybe he will begin to better understand the issue that he loves to speak so freely about) and as such the penalty will fit the crime. I'm sure there will be people who think it wasnt enough regardless of what they give him outside of a beheading.

The "sport" cant necessarily just get rid of guys like the ones you named. It simply isnt that easy to do. Everybody wants to point fingers at this industry in regards to "throwing people out" yet they forget that baseball never "threw out" Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Steve Howe, or Doc Gooden. Basketball didn't "throw out" Latrell Spreewell or Ron Artest. They all come back. There are these dudes called lawyers and these things called rights and it simply isnt easy to get rid of people because the courts seemingly always give in.

We all know that the media is shameless and will take advantage of any negative story it can. But that doesnt make them much different than Congress who will surely slip this little mishap into the next hearing.

Like Steve said earlier it is pretty surprising that Delaware came up with a bad test in the first place. Despite the rhetoric from the commission, everybody knows it is pretty "liberal" there.

I dont think it is real hard to find clenbuterol

A positive in the blood versus the urine would shed light on the timing of administration. If it was only found in the urine, and not the blood, then Jim Squire's cry of "sabotage" would lose a lot of steam.

I think Scott Lake had a clenbuterol positive in Delaware, too, not too long ago, by the way, not that that means the state isn't "liberal" like you said.

This post is dead on. Many of these "positives" with otherwise legal medications are not as innocent as several on this board would like to portray them.

well, yeah, we'd all rather have easy goings every day, and never a dark cloud. but the nfl with roger goodell seems to have gotten pretty serious about things-he's been very straightforward about what he won't tolerate, and has been very rigid with the rules. and i think that's what we need here. but it takes time to get to that point, and racing isn't there yet.

and yeah, seems too often bad apples keep showing up-but look at pacman jones for example-he has been trying how long now to get back on the field? does football really need him? probably not. but in a way, it's like nascar-some people watch to see the wreck, not the racing.

when i read not long ago that steve asmussen would one day be in the HOF, i was sickened and disgusted by that. if they can't put him out, that's one thing-but for him to be rewarded for his shady career...that's just crazy.
i guess more than anything, i don't understand the mind set of owners who turn a blind eye-like jess jackson who is SO interested in things being open and honest(:rolleyes: ), yet he chooses SA to train curlin. hypocrisy in action. these aren't horse racing fans who want to own, they're people who just want to win, regardless of how they get to the winners circle.

no doubt in my mind that's what happened in this case as well. look at breeders for example who try to get mares in cover as early as possible, to shoot for a foal date as close to jan 1 as possible-but of course not before then-but sometimes, they get caught out when the foal comes early and they fudge the birth date. same thing.

and probably how o'neill got tagged last year as well...then there's the frankel/lasix issue-his horse (think it was intercontinental) got her shot way too close to post time, so the vet lied on the paperwork. but they got caught, purse money redistributed...pretty blatant stuff right there.

I dont know if the sabotage train has even left the station. Maybe he believes someone got to jess jacksons horse in the 1st at CD today to make him look bad too.

Maybe thats the only thing they test for?

very true

it's a shame. racing way back when was when folks wanted to show their horse was the best. now it's who can win the most races, the horse is just the vehicle.

one of these days i'm going to put up a fence and have a retired racehorse in the pasture. maybe i'll have a horse like your hacker craft to feed for the rest of his life.

My first reaction wasn't sabotage, but it's the melodrama that you have to expect. It is what it is.

Anyway, Did you get a look at that horse? How many were in on him? I didn't see the races or watch the replays yet, but I was puzzled by the horse Cody took.

Eric

I do believe that there should be a graduated penalty system so that the second violation is punished more severely than the first and so on. Maybe even a points system similar to a drivers license because there are some guys who seem to be serial offenders of fairly low level violations. But i still maintain that there are much more serious issues in regards to drugs than the stuff we know about and are testing for. The labs that are testing for these drugs have no idea if drug is effective or performance enhancing at all at the levels that they are testing for. The numbers ar usually pretty arbitrary. The real danger is the things that they arent testing for. Hell, if there is no test then you dont even have to worry about any levels.

Honestly i dont think it was ever as pure as it is made out to be. Betting coups were probably a lot more fun in the age of bookmakers.

Hackercraft aint done yet!

Autry went to del mar last year. this horse would fit in those "broke maiden for 50k or less but have not won a race other than" races they have there. Just a guess.