Don't penalize the horse, Penalize the trainer!!!:D

I know a few that needed to be "cut" a long time ago :rolleyes:

So true.. We have 2 Arabian stallions where I work, that are basically sweethearts except for when the testosterone kicks in and they want to be "nippy" or scream at the other horses.. They never breed and most likely never will. I hope someday their owners either sell them to someone that will geld them so that they can have a better life. As they are, they can't be turned out like "normal" horses and just live in a box 24/7.

Hough
 

Check out Giant Chieftain in the 4th for Hough - $950,000 Son of Giant's Causeway out of a G1 producing mare - gelded.

Based on his race record, what stud fee would you be willing to pay to breed to Giant Chieftain?
While I would be pretty pissed off that I paid 950k, and he's stuck in a 2 other than and gelded as a 4 year old, the Robsham's have been with Stan Hough for a long time and know his routine. I also don't think that Hough called one day and said "Oh by the way Mrs. R, I gelded that Giant's Causeway colt you spent almost a million dollars for." I'm sure she (or at least her racing manager) had some say in the deed.

The interesting Hough runner, to me, for the same owner, I believe, is Trippi's Storm. Didn't cost much but is certainly more valuable as a stallion given his improvement when switched to turf. Bet they wish he hadn't been gelded. Then again, maybe he doesn't get good unless he's gelded. I don't have the data but I wonder if he was gelded BEFORE they tried him on the turf. Gelding TS is bad enough but HOugh also made some errors in training with him and cost the owner at least a grade one and some nice bucks. Then again, given all the high priced horses that seem to not work out for them, they probably can afford it.

Agreed TFM, I'm not sure but I do think Trippi Storm was cut before he tried turf. Forgot about that one, it would tick me off too.

Colts are from Mars.

Fillies are from Venus.

Geldings are from Heaven.

I think you are right and wrong at the same time. If a horse is capable of running well and being somewhat manageable then why geld, but if either of those aren't the case why wouldn't you give it a sho? So many horses benefit from the procedure with so little to lose.

And why would anyone pay to breed to Trippi's Storm? HUH?

Yeah; turf stallions aren't of much value.

However, the point is that GRADE 1 winning turf stallions are MORE VALUABLE than geldings without grade 1's.

Got anything interesting to add?

seems there are plenty of good stallions around, and not so sure that more need to be added to the mix.
also, not a given that many geldings who turn out good would turn out so well if kept intact.

Trippi has been an OK Florida based stallion. I believe he ran for Robsham if anyone ever wanted a son of Trippi to stand and succeeed it would be Robsham right? So my point is it's hard enough to book Trippi now you want want Robsham to try and make a son of Trippi who was OK on the turf with an average pedigree. I know the guy is super wealthy but have a heart. How many mares does this guy have to buy to give a Trippi's Storm a realistic shot. So I guess cutting the guy and having a nice turfer made more sense then hoping and investing in making him a legit stallion.

BTW his only value was as a racehorse that Hough and Robsham used to flatter Trippi Period

I'm pretty sure they gelded him before his first start in NY. I agree that they ended up screwing that horse up. I wonder if he ends up coming back. Hasn't had any workouts but I don't remember hearing that he was retired.

It's not like the horse is going to all of a sudden be a monster when he's gelded. Might as well save the genetics and breed him to a few mares and see what happens. Not every stud has to be marketable and worth $100K a pop.

He was good before they cut him. And ya, they were really trying to flatter Trippi - they ran the horse like 10 times on dirt before switching him to turf.

I'm not saying every stallion has to stand for 100k, but given how he's performed I would not even shell out $1,000 to breed to him. There are enough stallions that shouldn't be standing as it is. Didn't see the down side of gelding him since there must have been reasons to cut him.

Trippi ran for Dogwood, not the Robshams. If a colt is hard to manage (Balto Star) or runty (like Kelso) or downright vicious (Forego) or a ridgeling who has some discomfort (Funny Cide) they will never attain their peak on the track anyhow so the owners buck it up and geld. Based on the percentage of horses that end up being truly valuable (or more realistically, financially viable) as a stallion, it's usually a safe bet. Everyone like to play "what if?" games when a gelding becomes a superstar.
Look at it this way: If a well bred colt can't get through the NW1 level how viable is he really as a stud prospect? Geld him, win a few stakes and everyone second guesses you. What they don't realize is that with his b@lls, he was never going to BE a stakes horse.
Everyone reads about the monster stud deals for horses like Street Sense or Big Brown but most decent graded horses get sold for a few hundred thousand which you could easily make with your newly minted gelding.

I know End Sweep turned out to be a surprisingly decent turf sire, but when did that reputation extend to Trippi, a horse who made a career out of winning 7f Grade 2 races on dirt?

I completely understand your argument. With Hough, though, there may not have been a reason to geld. Personally if I shelled out $950K for a colt I'd be trying to get something back - and if the horse isn't very good - you've probably got a better chance doing it in the shed than on the track. He's actually not THAT bad of a horse, though.

Switching Trippi's Storm had nothing to do with them trying to flatter Trippi.

I understand your point also, but I would find it very hard to believe that there wasn't a reason to geld Giant Chieftain. I know if I paid that much for him there better be a damn good reason to cut him and the trainer better have a good explanation why it's going to do him any good. From a stallion marketability standpoint he'd be better off being unraced, rather than the ad that says "impressive winner of one other than...."

Do you have any idea how much this costs?

Nope. . .

I'm guessing that you aren't mega wealthy so you have to understand that these type of people have a completely different mindset than you and I. Horses with pedigrees and race records like this one sell as stallion prospects at the end of the book in the Keeneland January sale for like $6000 every year.

After doing a little research. . . I figured out E. Paul Robsham is dead. . . he's survived by his wife who overlooks the stable. . . Doubt she's looking for stallion prospects, but it still seems a little strange to me to geld a horse like that.

A lot more than you think. If you bought 6 mares to breed to him at a cost of $10000 you would have close to $250000 in bills before the first foals even hit the track and that is not counting training and breaking of the babies. And that is being conservative. Do you think it is worth a $250000 bet to see if he is any good which he almost assuredly wont be?

They spent $950K on the horse. . . considering that $250K doesn't seem so bad. Mrs. Robsham is a rich old lady, though, so it's obvious that she's not too concerned with trying to make some of her money back. Knowing that I find it odd that she sold Discreet Cat.

So it isn't bad enough they blew over a million on him, you want them to spend another 250 trying to justify the first million? Unusual logic. The word was that she really did not want to sell and they put an unbelievable figure on the horse but Sheikh mo said no problem. Even rich people have a price. Not to mention advisors that profit handsomely off deals like that.

Giant Chieftan has been a goofball from the first day. Remember his debut at Saratoga, where he was all set to blow away the field when he decided he wanted a hot dog and a beer, and nearly ended up in the stands?

He's never shown the ability that would make him a desirable sire.

yeah was that him?

Yeah, I bet him...( and I bet him again today. :rolleyes:)

Sniper had the 50-1 shot that benefitted from his antics though.

wasnt that J. Sanders horse?

Yeah, Kon Krete Kid. First crop of Jump Start. I think he has concrete shoes on now, don't think he ever won another race.

He just won a $25K claimer the other day at Arlington! Race 8 on Friday.

Nice catch! Guess I was wrong that he hadn't won since, since it was an N3L. He's got more wins than Giant Chieftan :D :D

Douglas jumping aboard for Robertson at 10/1. got a great trip

As Cannon Shell said, it's about the value of this horse as a stud prospect is probably very low. By low I mean five figures, low five figures. Even if he were to win a stake this season by some miracle he would be next to worthless. The modest end of the market is filled with stallions who were once potental top stallions after good racing careers. The market doesn't need a flakey headed unsuccessful son of Giant's Causeway.
IF Mrs. Robsham were interested, she would have to invest a couple of hundred thousand MORE into him to buy mares and breed her own to him.

If he were to stand someplace he's suitable only for a regional market. Even if he did win a minor stake this season (and that is a stretch) he'd be worth maybe $1000 fee. At that rate in Louisiana or Maryland or NY he might get 15 mares because he's just not a hot ticket. The regional markets are flooded with slow bluebloods. If he generated $15k in income a year, against the cost of maintaining him, advertising him, feeding him it's a LOSS.

He was a big investment that didn't pan out. He's not a viable stud prospect. (CS mentioned that horses like this sell at auction all the time for under $10k.) Mrs. Robsham figures that maybe gelding him will make him at least a viable RACING prospect, one that she can enjoy watching or who at least will be salable though the claim box if he can't quite succeed in allowances.

What most pople don't realize is how much money it cost to STAND a stallion. You have to advertise and promote the heck out of him. You have to sell him. You also have to pay the standing farm or stallion manager alot of money for his upkeep. You have to pay for the breeding shed staff and the vets who attend to the breeding. You have general vet and farrier expenses. If he is valuable, insurance is important and expensive.

The horse in my avatar is a very nice gelding. He lives at a boarding and showing barn and aside from funky shoes he requires no special maintainance. Off the top, board and vet and farriery is assumed to be about $1000 a month. If he were a standing stallion, he'd certainly have to be a fancier place, prepared to handle mares, perform the mating, handle vet care related to breeding etc. Such a place would need to maintain separate paddocks for him and any other stallions. Factor in that most low priced, regional stallions rarely get books of over 10 mares, I can't see making any money at that level. Add on promoting a stallion, and I cannot imagine how a stallion can be viable for an fee less that about $5k.

Great post Linny.

Thanks for the insight Linny. I fully admit that I don't know much about this part of the game. . .

Well said Linny.