No horse on drugs can be considered a super horse , imo.

OK I give! I would have been better saying high school vs. college or pro as I believe he could not even make the high school team. My point was simply when horses at 3 retire there's alot of potential improvement we never get to see.

Spyder

no, she was arguing passionately about what makes a great horse, and you fired back calling her post the most assinine, and now you complain about people being rude? you didn't help your cause any with that remark.

I gotcha. Your analogy was accurate and well taken, I was just saying that Jordan was the wrong example.

I think he said he didnt know what bayers are not beyers

Then why does she constantly put my quote up at the end of all of her posts in that thread?

i don't know, ask her.

I remember reading something awhile ago saying that the whirlaway connections would put a little ball of heroin on his tongue before his races.

You really think only "modern" horses are drugged??

Fitting link:

http://www.sirbacon.org/4membersonly/docellis.htm

Detail of Dock Ellis pitching a no hitter on acid:

What's weird is that sometimes it felt like a balloon. Sometimes it felt like a golf ball. But he could always get it to the plate. Getting it over the plate was another matter entirely. Sometimes he couldn't see the hitter. Sometimes he couldn't see the catcher. But if he could see the hitter, he'd guess where the catcher was. And he had a great catcher back there. Jerry May. You could make mistakes with him, and he would compensate. He'd know if he called for a curveball, he could look at the follow-through of your arm and see if you were gonna hang it. So he'd get ready to slide and block. Also, he had this reflective tape on his fingers that was by far the easiest thing to see.

Ellis had no idea what the score was, and he knew he'd been wild--he ended with eight walks, one hit batsman and the bases loaded at least twice--but here it was, bottom of the seventh, and he was still in the game.
The hardest part was between innings. He was sure his teammates knew something was up. They had all been acting strange since the game began. Solution: Do not look at teammates. Do not look at scoreboard. Must not make eye contact. His spikes--that's what he concentrated on. Pick up tongue depressor, scrape the mud, repeat. Must. Clean. Spikes.
Sometime in the fifth or sixth, he sensed someone next to him. Looking. He turned. It was rookie infielder Dave Cash.
"Dock," Cash said. "You've got a no-hitter going."
Cash, apparently unaware of the (insanely well-known) superstition that a pitcher never talks about a no-hitter until it's complete for fear of jinxing it, was immediately piled upon by several outraged teammates. Ellis, meanwhile, looked at the scoreboard.
H What's weird is that sometimes it felt like a balloon. Sometimes it felt like a golf ball. But he could always get it to the plate. Getting it over the plate was another matter entirely. Sometimes he couldn't see the hitter. Sometimes he couldn't see the catcher. But if he could see the hitter, he'd guess where the catcher was. And he had a great catcher back there. Jerry May. You could make mistakes with him, and he would compensate. He'd know if he called for a curveball, he could look at the follow-through of your arm and see if you were gonna hang it. So he'd get ready to slide and block. Also, he had this reflective tape on his fingers that was by far the easiest thing to see.
Ellis had no idea what the score was, and he knew he'd been wild--he ended with eight walks, one hit batsman and the bases loaded at least twice--but here it was, bottom of the seventh, and he was still in the game.
The hardest part was between innings. He was sure his teammates knew something was up. They had all been acting strange since the game began. Solution: Do not look at teammates. Do not look at scoreboard. Must not make eye contact. His spikes--that's what he concentrated on. Pick up tongue depressor, scrape the mud, repeat. Must. Clean. Spikes.
Sometime in the fifth or sixth, he sensed someone next to him. Looking. He turned. It was rookie infielder Dave Cash.
"Dock," Cash said. "You've got a no-hitter going."
Cash, apparently unaware of the (insanely well-known) superstition that a pitcher never talks about a no-hitter until it's complete for fear of jinxing it, was immediately piled upon by several outraged teammates. Ellis, meanwhile, looked at the scoreboard.
Huh.
Yeah.
After the eighth, during which he'd watched outfielder Matty Alou snag an almost certain base hit, Ellis walked off the field and looked Cash straight in the eye. "Still got my no-no!" Ellis declared. uh.

Yeah.
After the eighth, during which he'd watched outfielder Matty Alou snag an almost certain base hit, Ellis walked off the field and looked Cash straight in the eye. "Still got my no-no!" Ellis declared.

That is very interesting..because I thought I saw Cigar smoking a crack-pipe before the Pacific Classic...

if you go to user cp, and click on signature, you can save something that will always be on the bottom of your posts. some have links to myspace, etc. i put yours up, as it helped me keep your thoughts in perspective as to where you're coming from.

sorry that it offended you, so i took it down. as for my nine thousand posts, i've been here since the board began, several years ago. takes time to rack up those posts-but since you've just gotten here, perhaps you don't know how much history is involved with some posters here.

but i did agree with you as far as comparing big brown to afleet alex-for what that's worth.

as for flinging insults almost immediately upon joining, that speaks to your manners, not mine.

You have 9,000 posts because you're unable to just let people like RollerDoc sputter away.

Just curious to how people feel. If Big Brown were to win the Belmont by 20 lengths in 2:29 3/5, how would you feel afterwards? Glad to finally have a TC winner or extremely upset that it had to happen this way?

Guess it all really depends on what his Beyer is!! :D

How I feel would probably depend on who runs second.

I am just looking forward to the race. If he wins, that'll be great and I could care less who his owner is or that his trainer has had more suspensions than most.

I also won't care that 95% of the experts will say he beat nothing. They all said the same thing about Seattle Slew. If Brown wins the race and people don't take time to appreciate the accomplishment, then they can wallow in their overly self-righteous indignations. Then they can wait another 30 or 100 years for the next undefeated TC winner to come along.

The horse has done everything that has been asked of him and has overcome some serious adversity in the process....winning from the outside at Gulfstream was something that he supposedly was not going to do...winning the KD from post 20 in his 4th lifetime start was supposedly something that he was not gonna do...coming back on 2 weeks rest in the Preakness was possibly going to be his undoing... I realy believe that more than a few are unable to put aside their dislike for Dutrow and/or IEAH and give the horse appropriate credit.
... also, being juiced does not explain his performances cause if BB is being juiced with something illegal and undetectable then it seems pretty damn likely that he would not be the only one on that juice...
oh and I guarantee ya there were a few boneheads that thought that the red colt of Lucien Laurens was good enough to beat Onion a few years back

You act as though real racing fans are disappointed year after year that there is no TC winner....let alone an undefeated one. Real racing fans know what a truly special horse is and are excited by seeing it race. Sorry, but real racing fans are disheartened by horses that are retired before having the opportunity to show how good they may actually be.

When Big Brown takes on Curlin in the Fall and even runs a close second I will applaud him. Until then, barring a sensational performance, I will pass on accepting his accomplishments as remarkable. He is nothing more than a very nice horse beating up on mediocrities. Nothing wrong with that and I wish there were more of his kind around. However, pardon me if I don't get goose bumps when he romps over 7 overmatched, and at best moderately talented, rivals.

He's a very good horse Dave. There's no denying that. However, in the pantheon of TC winners he is nothing special. Silver Charm could have done exactly what Big Brown has done, and then some, and he was hardly revered in the manner of this horse. Yes, I am comparing him to some pretty heady company, and that is a compliment to Big Brown, but let's stop pretending he is something he has so far proven not to be.

Bottom line for me is that he would have been no better than third in last year's Preakness.

That's close to how I feel. I'd rather have last year than this year, several good horses giving us several exciting races instead of one really good horse giving us three blowouts. I wish they would continue on but I've gotten so accustomed to not seeing it that I don't expect it anymore so I'm no longer disheartened. I'm not even holding my breath on a Big Brown vs. Curlin matchup because I feel like the odds are much more in favor against it happening. I feel like Big Brown is a very good horse, possibly even a great one. As you say, even a close second to Curlin would be ok with me although I have a feeling that many people would give him the same unfair treatment that they gave Bernardini for losing to Invasor, as if there was some shame in that. Didn't 3yo Affirmed lose to 4yo Seattle Slew and 3yo Spectacular Bid lost to 4yo Affirmed.

While I agree with you in principle, I don't think it would kill you to give him a tad more credit. He didn't make his sophomore debut until March 5th. He turned in a very impressive effort in the FL Derby off of only one start and very light training in almost 7 months. And he hasn't been threatened while winning three Grade Is.

Denis of Cork is a very nice horse. I think Big Brown is more, if only slightly more.

this thread gets an 86 bayer.

not all that good considering any mention of big brown at this point is an almost automatic 80 bayer.

i had hopes for the first thread roller started but that petered out as no better than a 90.

i'm confident this subject matter has a 100+ bayer in it though. keep trying.

I give him plenty of credit. Just because I'm realistic doesn't mean I don't believe he's a very nice horse. How many times do I need to say it? What he isn't is as good, right now, as Curlin was at this point in 2007. Yes, the same Curlin who had pretty much a similar campaign. Yes, the same Curlin who has developed into a terrific horse but is no better, if even as good, as Skip Away. No knock there either. Skip Away was a marvelous horse. However, I don't see a lot of people saying he belongs in the same class as Seattle Slew. Thank God....because he doesn't. But, at least he ran many top notch races.

Denis of Cork is a very nice horse? Compared to what? Everything is relative. Using him as a comparison is probably unfair even to Big Brown. I should hope he is ten lengths better than Denis of Cork if he wins the TC. Hell, I should hope he is 15 lengths better.

I've seen a lot of wonderful racehorses. Maybe that's why I don't wet myself over ever reasonable horse that comes down the pike. I'm still waiting for another Go for Wand. If you want to see what a real champion is take a good look at her lifetime pps.

Denis of Cork? Give me a break.

May I ask why you have been on my case about the thread I started last night from the get go? I'm sorry if I'm fairly new here but my questions were legit (for me). If they are too entry level for your tastes then don't respond at all instead of how you did? Why would you treat a stranger that way?

Denis of Cork is nowhere close to Big Brown - however - I think he stands a better (although small) chance to upset BB than Casino Drive does. . .

I am a fan of FREE with Super Saver Shipping...........

Hey, I'm no Denis of Cork fan. But I think he's earned the distinction "very nice".

"Very nice" doesn't mean "great".

I'm just a little confused, and slow, so help me with this one. You joined in August of 2006. The board began a few months before that. How exactly are you, then, " fairly new? "

He's " very nice " relative to his total crop. He's nowhere close relative to good horses.

Like Zanjero and Nobiz?

Just like them. Good in their crop. Nowhere near good overall though.

So far he's not as good as Zanjero and nowhere near Nobiz's league.

I'm going to print this post, and frame it.

Yes!!!!

Before last night I didn't have that many posts. Maybe new is the wrong word as opposed to meaning infrequent poster.

Or

you might just bet some money on the plug in the Belmont.

I was thinking sensitive

Is it me or did Borel ride Cork exactly the same way he rode Street Sense in the KD? Obviously with a much different result but he was way back there and flew up the rail passing almost all but two.

I think NoBiz is a very good horse. I also think Zanjero is pretty good as well.

I'll put it in relative terms....they were better 3YOs, by a reasonable amount, than Flashy Bull. Had either been sound, and made a reasonable progression from three to four, they could have been competitive in the top races as long as Curlin didn't run. Do you honestly think either one of them couldn't have won the Pimlico Special for instance? How about this year's Donn?

Perhaps sensitive is appropriate but I hope you will consider that three posters including you off the bat didn't even give me a chance.

I psyched about the props Andy gave to Zanjero, even though he doesn't realize it.

What did anyone actually do or say to you that was so bad anyway?