[screams, gnashing of teeth, hairing being pulled] MaresPRODUCE offspring! stallions SIRE offspring, THAT IS WHY THEY ARE CALLED THE SIRE! she yelled. Sorry, pet peeve activated.

Boudoir II, granddam of Flower Bowl was the foundress of this family; her son Your Host sired HotY Kelso among others, daughter Your Hostess produced G1-type winners T.V. Commercial and Corragioso and was granddam of Majestic Prince, et. al. A lot more major winners in this line in later generations and other branches.

Actually, Glowing Tribute is yet another member of the La Troienne tribe.

The great racemare Dahlia turned into a top producer; she had 4 G1 winners, and two G2 winners (one of them G1-placed), plus a G1-placed horse who didn't win a stakes, and a listed-placed filly. Six foals who could compete at the G1 level is pretty good in my book.

Selene's sons Hyperion, Sickle, Pharamond II, and Hunter's Moon (a top sire in Argentina) are all deeply imbedded in huge numbers of pedigrees; it would be hard to find a US pedigree without Selene's name in it somewhere.

Plucky Liege is a mare a lot of you haven't heard of, but she produced 3 classic winners - Sir Gallahad III, Bois Roussel, and Admiral Drake - all of whom became influential sires. So did Sir G's little brother Bull Dog, sire of Bull Lea, et. al.

But my favorite broodmare of all time was Maggie B. B. She foaled the first US-bred winner of the Derby at Epsom, Iroquois (in 1881 - he also won the St. Leger); a Belmont winner, Panique; a Preakness winner, Harold; plus two other SWs, and founded one of the finest and most prolific female families in North American breeding history. Proper Reality, Thirty Slews, Cryptoclearance, Harlan's Holiday, Mystery Giver, French Deputy, Bet on Sunshine, Safely Kept, Film Maker, Life's Magic, Dubai Millennium, Dixie Union, Lemons Forever, Sinister Minister..., these are some of her recent descendents you may be familiar with.

Hey ... when you can pull out a new one on me ... you've really got something!

Two other influential mares were Bourtai ... who founded the line which produced all those Levee, Bayou, Dike, Delta horses ... and ... Hildene ... the blind mare who produced Hill Prince, Prince Hill, Third Brother, and First Landing ... though neither of these two families are as important as they once were.

You mention Bull Dog as almost an afterthought ... but for a while he was by far the most important of Plucky Liege's offspring ...

... though it all went bad when Bull Lea turned out to be the worst sire of sires in world history.

Excuse me? Bull Lea was a terrific sire, the reason that Calumet rose to the heights it did. His son Citation was a bust as a sire.

As to Plucky Liege's sons, Sir Gallahad III was leading US sire (4 times to Bull Dog's once) and leading broodmare sire (12 times to Bull Dog's 3), sired a Triple Crown winner and two other Kentucky Derby winners, while Bull Dog sired no winners of Triple Crown races. Bull Dog was not nearly as good a racehorse as Plucky Liege's other 3 sons. Bois Roussel and Admiral Drake stood in Europe and sired classic winners there, had minimal impact on this continent.

Hellllooooo ... Pedigree Ann ... are you there?

You may want to re-read my post ... I didn't say Bull Lea wasn't a good sire ... I said he was the worst sire of sires in world history. You see ... a sire is like a daddy ... and a sire of sires is like a grandpa.

And it wasn't just Citation who was a failure at stud ... every single one of Bull Lea's sons was a catastrophe as a stallion. The "Bull Lea line" began and ended with ... Bull Lea.

Do you understand that ... or shall I try to explain it some more?

Helllloooooo ... Pedigree Ann ... are you there?

Please re-read my post ... I didn't say that Bull Dog was as good a sire of runners as his brother, Sir Gallahad ... nor that Bull Dog was a good race horse.

What I said was "for a while" he was the "most important" of Plucky Liege's offspring. That "while" being the 1940's and 1950's ... when Bull Dog's son Bull Lea was cranking out champions as though he were an assembly line.

But the "assembly line" came to a screeching halt ... when all of Bull Lea's sons were failures at stud. (Oh ... but you already knew that from my previous post.)

Do you understand that ... or shall I try to explain it some more?

What difference does it make?

Been an interesting topic/thread to read...I agree with most that the single most influential mare in history has to be La Troienne...no other can compare. Not sure if anybody posted the link to the Reines-de-Course site so:
http://www.reines-de-course.com/
I guess one could argue the importance of Spilletta...certainly her contribution was rather important...

I don't know ... you'll have to ask Black Toney or Blue Larkspur ...

... who were grandfather and grandson ... yikes !!! ... what a randy group !!!

Hold on, kimosabe ...

... remember my first post on this thread ... where I said it was Mumtaz Mahal?

If you're just looking at tail-female ... then La Troienne is it ... but ...

... if you're looking at overall impact on the breed ... it's Mumtaz Mahal ... "The Flying Filly" ... by two furlongs

Her influence through male lines is pervasive ... through Mahmoud, Gallant Man, Nasrullah, Royal Charger, My Babu, Northern Dancer, Rahy, St. Ballado, and many more ... and a whole squadron of stakes-producing broodmares.

Ah, for total impact, I still go with La Troienne, I see your point though...lets just name them both and call it a compromise!

Somer. I think he just called you a swamp.

What difference does it make, top or bottom?

I gotta very likely answer I believe.

This answer is EASY!!!
 

Best Broodmare of all time is my Mom....

1 son and three daughters, 3 college educations and the other about to start college and the most astonishing thing in today's world, NO ARRESTS.

If I called my mom a broodmare...

Im gonna go call my wife a broodmare and see what happens.

NO ARRESTS.....yet...:D

It doesn't surprise me with my oldest sister and my youngest sister, but middle sister and myself pretty surprising

Mahmoud, Nasrullah, and Royal Charger belong to Mumtaz Mahal's female family(9-c), but My Babu is from the Lavendula branch of the Marchetta family(1-w), Northern Dancer is from Almahmoud branch of the Mother Goose family (2-d), Rahy is from the Skylarking branch of the Lindos Ojos bunch (12-c) and so on. Mumtaz Mahal appears in their pedigrees, but so do a bunch of other good mares, including one I should have mentioned before - Frizette!

US-bred Frizette was the foundation of the Boussac stud, producing 3 SWs and founding a mighty family whose members include the great sire Tourbillon, the champion sprinter Myrtlewood (ancestress of Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector)..., well, you get the picture.

You want to get technical, Mumtaz Mahal's mum Lady Josephine deserves some of the credit; she produced not only Mumtaz Mahal but Lady Juror, dam of 6 SWs including the important sire Fair Trial and the dam of even more important sire Tudor Minstrel.

In curiosity I took a look at Rahy and found a plethora of important broodmares and family founders, not just Mumtaz Mahal. He has multiple crosses of Selene. Black Ray, and Plucky Liege, also Alcibiades, Pink Domino, La Grelee, Uganda, Lady Juror, Lavendula, Baton Rouge, Herodias, Mother Goose, La Troienne, Betty Derr, Exalted, Vaila, and Cinna, all of whom have had an important influence on the breed.

Pedigree ANN:

What the diff.? Female on the top or bottom and why?

Just trying to get a feel if anyone on the thread likes genetics, not just family trees.

I DID misread the post as sire, not sire of sires. However, for Bull Lea, I must plead special circumstances.

Bull Lea's sons included several high-profile runners who 'failed at stud', like Citation (although he did sire a Preakness winner and a champion, the filly Silver Spoon) but actually few of them stayed in the US. Coaltown was shipped to France for stud, Hill Gail went to Ireland and sired a classic winner, Iron Liege had subnormal fertility but sired SWs in France and Japan. Some were decent sires, like Bull Page in Canada, regional sires like Trentonian and Prophets Thumb. But looking through the list of Bull Lea's SWs I was surprised at the proportion of them that were fillies and geldings (like the great Armed). He didn't churn out the sire prospects the way Northern Dancer did; the Dancer also had his share of high-profile 'failures' (Viceregal, Lomond, Danzatore, Shareef Dancer, Secreto) but they were overshadowed by his many successes.

I call my G/F a broodmare all the time. 3 beautiful children.
Of course I always add she has great conformation....

My wife kicked me in the kineeckees before I got to the conformation part.

What the hell. I dont need my sperm cells anymore.

Oh ... oh ... oh ... now I understand your question !!!

When I said that La Troienne was "usuually on the bottom" ... I was making a joke about her position in the breeding shed ... which Blacthroatedwind got and enjoyed ... but which you apparently didn't.

He and I were talking about when she was bred to Blue Larkspur ... who was "on the top" and who was "on the bottom"?

Now do you get it?

Hey, Ann ... you're becoming very expert at misreading my posts.

Is that because you're trying hard to do so ... or is it that you just can't read?

I pointed this out in two earlier posts ... Thursday 9:10pm and 9:20pm ... and you didn't even have the graciousness to acknowledge your mistakes.

Now you're taking flight again ... with more erroneous commentary on what I wrote. Are you the latter-day Flying Filly?

It's time for you to show a little class ... and graciously acknowledge your mistakes ... or some people may erroneously start thinking that you're just an airhead ... and a snotty one to boot..

My but we are touchy. I'm not on this site continuously, you know. I've been tired, and grouchy, too, and a little brain-dead for several days. Spending a week in an overheated house in Atlanta will do that to you.

Did you not read all of MY post? And get the point? As I noted with Rahy, while Mumtaz Mahal appears in the pedigrees lots of top stallions (in fact, she may be ubiquitous by now, just like Phalaris, Plucky Liege, and Swynford, and several others of that vintage), she is by no means the only top mare to do so.

You should see my pedigree geek board, where we have people who look for the rare offspring of Queen Mary (1843) or Beeswing (1833) or Alice Hawthorn (1838) in pedigrees to explain successful matings. The glee that greets the sighting of a cross of Nunnykirk (1846) or Fitz James (1875)!

Is this your version of ... "Ooops ... sorry I misread your post. What you said about Bull Dog is absolutely correct."?

Hmmm ... I don't seem to see anything like that in there. Would that have been too gracious for a grouch?

And speaking of touchy ... aren't you the same person who went ballistic when a novice poster used the word "sired" in connection with a mare ... instead of "produced" ... even after I already had kindly and gently corrected that person in my earlier response?

Where does grouchy end ... and snotty begin? You're risking your rep on this forum with your lack of graciousness ... or don't you care?

Here's the site to the mother of Reines de Course, Ellen Parker...

http://www.reines-de-course.com/

*Yawn.*

"even after I already had kindly and gently corrected that person in my earlier response?"
That would be the only time you've "kindly" corrected anyone.

Whassamatter?

Don't you believe in Redemption?

Of course I do. I just find it hilarious that you find redemption in posting on a message board. To each their own I guess...

The Redemption came from going to Aqueduct in mid-winter ...

... and it carried over to this forum.

I'm never going to post that because IMHO you are not right about Bull Dog; Sir Gallahad III was and continues to be more influential in this country, particularly through his many, many producing daughters. I did say that I had misread your post about Bull Lea being a poor sire of sires, in case you missed it. And tried to explain why I thought it happened.

I'm too tired to write anything more now. Sorry you didn't catch the intended humor of the 'ballistic attack'.

You prefer to fudge and be dishonest ... instead of graciously conceding that you misunderstood something.

Are you seriously trying to say that "for a while" ... meaning the mid-1940's to the mid-1950's ... Bull Dog wasn't more influential than Sir Gallahad? Can you even remotely back that up? Please list all the champions and major stakes winners from the Sir Gallahad line ... during that period ... which matched the parade of champions from the Bull Dog line.

And Bull Lea wasn't just a poor sire of sires ... he was awful ... as I said ... the world's worst ... as far as stallions who were champions themselves. Your "explanation" of why it happened ... because his sons were "exported" ... conveniently leaves out why they were exported ... and that's because they stunk as stallions here. Why else would champion ... or major-stakes-winning ... sons of the pre-eminent stallion in this country be exported to a Europe that had barely begun to recover from the devastation of WWII?

About Coaltown .. you just say that he was exported ... but you again conveniently left out that ... from over 150 foals ... he failed to sire a single stakes winner ... either here or in Europe.

I'll give you this last chance to redeem yourself ... not just with me ... but with everyone else who is closely following this thread ... and simply admit that you misread my first post ... and subsequently came to understand that the points I made were correct.

That should be pretty easy for a self-assured, mature adult to do. Are you up to it, Annie?

Well, I followed this a bit, really just to see BB make an a ss of himself (not disappointed). PedAnn... no need to "redeem" yourself, at least on my acount and certainly not on this buffon's account either. He's just trying to get off (literally or figuratively,... probably both) by yanking your chain.

Don't feel obliged to feed the clown.

my gosh BB, let it go. not that there's anything there for you to cling to!
you want her to redeem herself to everyone? lol

now bb speaks for everyone. wonderful.

Just trying to give her another chance before I draw a final conclusion about her.

Some people make snap decisions ... and tear into people who malign them. I'm sure you've seen that happen ... both here and elsewhere.

I'm a little less impulsive than that ... I'm always willing to give someone an extra opportunity before I write them off.

another chance at what? typing what you want to read,rather than what she wants to say? she already replied to you. maybe you should go back and re-read....or maybe you should just be satisfied with what you got.

Words spoken from one I've written off. It wasn't a "snap decision".
Plenty of "opportunities" for others to see as well.
I'll again say, "He that argues with a fool proves that he is one also."

oh great...now i'm a fool...

Not you Danzig!
Me for attempting to diologue before realizing the agenda.
Sorry if you took it the wrong way.