I believe you incorrectly assume that Big Booster under Mitchells care would not run well in GR1's or GR2's on dirt against the rather dreadful older horses out there. the horse has moved up a bit under Mitchell, big deal. which horse hasn't? pointing out that the horse ran fifth in his last dirt start overlooks the fact that the horse previously won on dirt with speed figures that are inline with what he is now running on aw. the class rise that you are hangin your hat on is a thin one imo.

and really, how good is Big Booster running on aw? he won an allowance race solely because of a hot pace set by Sinister Minister, then in four stakes he managed to float up for third in two of them, and didn't threaten in the other two.

i don't understand why you and others immediately resort to insults when you confront someone with a differing opinion.

His career lifetime top Beyer on dirt is a 98!!! And it came in a 1.5 length win in a 35K claiming race. His first start on synthetic, he beats TWO Grade 1 winners at 25/1 odds. His 2nd start on synthetic, he is beaten less than a length in the Hollywood Gold Cup at 25/1 odds.

Only someone trolling thinks that is a "thin class rise."


That's pretty funny. 30/1 shot Tobe Suave (who ran for a tag) pressed Sinister Minister and stayed on to finish 4th of 9. And, even though the pace wasn't really hot - if it was, how exactly would that hinder Heatseeker? After all, Heatseeker just won a $1,000,000 Grade 1 race that was setup by a very fast pace.

Oh yeah, you're right, the supposedly fast pace benefitted only Big Booster and not Heatseeker.

You're right - I should have known better than to ask if KYRIM stole your login - because the truth is, You do this trolling all the time!

Make no mistake, it is trolling, but you save it for racing debates and not off-topic nonsense stuff like every other poster would. It's very odd.

A grade 1 out in California really isn't equal to Grade 1's other places, all the good horses are in the east and midwest when it comes to dirt/synethic.

I know the point that Jim is trying to make, but it just won't get made. People like cmoriles and other people that have been doing this for a long time are stuck in their ways and change bothers them, it would bother me to. But all synethic track change are two things 1) pace and 2) the same notion that has been around since the creation of horse racing, some horses like it, some hate it, just like when horses switch from Hawthorne to Arlington, Churchilll to Turfway, Belmont to Saratoga.

I believe the only Grade 1 dirt route for older males run in the East so far was won by Spring At Last.

You do realize that Arl Jim said Big Booster "appears to be a better horse on dirt" ? He was a very moderate claimer on dirt!

Some trainers improve horses and we don't know what to expect now on dirt. he WAS a very moderate claimer, under a different conditioner.

2.5 months Doug, and there has been how many Grade 1 routes this year so far, ONE! And that race while stamped a GRADE 1, didn't have grade 1 talent.

Posting career records means little. I'm talking about my personal figures and the level of accomplishment. The fact is, you don't see horses successful on synthetic moving over to dirt and registering similar performances very often. About the only thing similar between dirt and synthetic, apparently, is the mortality rate.

For the record, those different conditiones were Peter Walder and John Kimmel.

And Scavs, the horses in the East aren't that good either.

Look, a few people who've posted on boards with Arl Jim for longer than I have don't seem to think he's trolling - the consensus is they think he's just trying too hard to defend the surface of his home track....

Maybe I'm wrong to say he's "trolling" - but you really have to wonder how it can be said that "Big Booster appears to favor the dirt." That is just not a logical statement.

Someone page KyRim,

We need her to come tell CJ his figures are flawed.

Walder is very good. Kimmel, um no, not with his stock.

I don't disagree, but East coast horses would trounce the west. STUDENT COUNCIL?? AWESOME GEM?? ZAPPA?? come on now. Zappa couldn't win a Grade 3 in NY or anywhere else. So would Awesome Gem for that matter.

Me personally, I can care less about a surface, they could run on cotton and it wouldn't matter to me

You check up on people on the internet?

Well then care less if you can.

The East is nothing to get too excited about either. The Skip Away, a G3, was just demolished by Gotcha Gold with a most likely inflated Beyer of 100. Mr. Umphrey was second. Yes, Mr. Umphrey. Frost Giant, a horse I looked at and dismissed in about 2 seconds when handicapping, went off at 6 to 5. Think about that one...

Irregardless, ...

Huh?

wow, Peter Walder had Big Booster for a single race in about a fifty race career.

my only agenda is that I wager on horse racing every day of the week so i try to study all aspects to stay sharp. I'm not trying to stick up for a particular surface. I only look for facts. I live near arlington but don't play it much and I'm not defending my home surface.

its easy to find examples of horses that have moved to synthetics and improved. Big Booster is one of them although I don't believe his improvement is that great.

however I didn't ask for examples of horses who moved from dirt to synthetic and improved. I asked a particular question for a particular reason, buts its clear that people aren't interested in putting aside their preconceived notions long enough to even try to understand the question or why I asked it. that's fine with me.

You asked CJ the question - I was going to stay out until you made the absurd comment that "Big Booster appears to prefer the dirt" and used his higher win percentage in claiming races - over his lower winning percentage (in Grade 1 and Grade 2 stakes) as your evidence.

You checking up on people on the internet...

TUESDAY's ALL YEAR? I can see now with Tampa but ALL YEAR?

I was wrong. I shouldn't have said he prefers dirt.

haha, tuesday is a tough day. I can't say I play Tuesdays all year. Philly is a brutally tough place to play, but Tampa is great.

Friends with the site owner...What do you expect? He can pretty much say anything to people......You're exactly right,though.....Says Yankee Bravo(who has never run a bad race) stinks,and then he wants people to overlook bad races by horses he likes(or bad races from horses trained by people he likes.) Unbelievable arrogance,actually,but that's the way it is.

The synthetic to dirt move is an issue,but it's overstated.It's a concern,but not a reason to totally toss horses.Some horses are going to do well on both.A horse with a big stride (like Gayego's, for instance) might actually like the dirt better.Georgie Boy? I don't know,but I wouldn't just toss a horse with that much heart.

I got it. It all makes sense now. This tired meme is quickly becoming the Derby Trail version of Godwin's Law on the internet in general.

Our version (I'll affectionately term it Scud's Law) would go something like this:

As a discussion on Derby Trail grows longer, the probability of a poster claiming that another poster receives special treatment from the site owner ,when no such special treatment exists, approaches one.

Scud's Law is generally applied in disagreements between two or more posters. These disagreements are usually understood by the greater community to be won by the poster(s) who apply the most logic and reasoning to back up their views. Scud's Law tends to become relevant when the poster who has lost the argument on the basis of logic and reasoning states the the argument's victors are only allowed to say what they say (e.g., "win the argument") because Steve Byk personally allows them unchecked reign over the message board. This sort of fallacious argument is the backbone of Scud's Law.

It is well understood that if the argument has yet to be won, the poster who first invokes Scud's Law immediately loses the argument by default, regardless of their view's merit.

Interesting tidbit about Big Booster, he broke his maiden at first asking at Belmont at 1 mile on dirt (off turf). running second? Kittens Joy.

I got a Law named for me? Affectionately? These people get a longer rope due to personal friendship.It's why they cut,and then complain about being cut.I told the guy the truth.They are friends with the site owner,and get the longer leash.

I certainly didn't think there would be a "Big Booster" debate on the board today. Unless I am forgetting something, I don't think the horse has ever cracked the exacta in any graded stakes race on any surface....let alone win one.
Doesn't he basically just stink regardless of the surface?

I think brianwspencer was only allowed to post that stuff about Scud's law because he is actually Byk's adopted son.

yes, basically thats right. the topic veered off on to Big Booster because of a throwaway statement I made about him while trying to stimulate a different discussion.
He has not been anything exceptional on turf throughout his career, and he is not exceptional now in California on synthetic. He is better on turf and synthetic than dirt. not a big story really.

The winner of the Donn Handicap this year ran on turf as well.

And what horses and trainers would those be? Do tell.

I think you are talking about War Pass - but I never can tell with you.

I've long ripped on Zito for some of the dumb things he says in interviews. And if you remember, there was a thread giving War Pass undue credit for his return race - go back and look.

......yeah, the east has some real older horse monsters:rolleyes:

Just to add one more ingredient in case anyone wanted to keep the Big Booster debate alive...

He was gelded last year (as was Sun Boat) when claimed by Mike Mitchell and brought to CA.

Not sure if the public was notified in a timely manner when he paid $50, though.

Big Booster ran 8th for Mike Mitchell in his first start after he was gelded. Than came his synthetic debut win over Heatseeker.

I agree and will be looking at a Synthetic to Dirt horse for the Derby. I can see know reason to increase your horses chances of injury before the big race you are pointing to. Racing and training on synthetics has benifits over dirt and if your horse takes to the dirt then you will cash a very nice ticket.

I know, I bet him. Just ran around without making a move that day. I think he was coming off a bit of a layoff that day.

Of course, I failed to bet him back.

I wasn't trying to ignore what you asked. It is tough off the top of my head to list horses that fit your criteria. I think I know where you are going, and that is that horses seem fine moving from synthetic to dirt. I will agree it is more common for horses to move in that direction than vise versa.

There are plenty that don't take to dirt though. Just looking at Tuesday I found the following no name horses that seem to have a preference for synthetic. Synthetic races are in blue, dirt brown, grass green...most recent race to the left. They are overall performance ratings, each one a race, and do take into account maturation, pace, speed, etc...Beyer scale.

Code:

---

6  Just You and I Kid    15    40    37    39
4  Finale's Gold          44    13    21    64    54    21    48    50    57    58
6  Circular Reasoning    60    43    50    65    61    79    76    41    66    60
5  Payment in Kind        58    56    60    67    58    58    57    37    68    78
7  Jake's Da Man          29    52    62    55    63    54    59    49    67    59
8  Sterling Justice      35    39    47    33    31
7  Dancinginocidental    63    48    70    67    60    64    60    46    58    54

---

I agree. I think every G1 should be contested only by firsters who have had all of their career workouts in a recovery pool.
Just think of all those fresh, healthy horses running against each other! It surely would be racing at its absolute best.

Well,here is what I do if I own either Georgie Boy,or Gayego etc.If your horse is indeed better on synthetic than dirt,then I don't think you want to find out on Derby Day.There are a lot of ways to make money with 3 year olds this year(including going back on synthetic.)For me,I would want my horse to try dirt in a race that isn't as tough (or dangerous) as the Derby.In prior years,I also would have sent them back there,because our dirt tracks weren't tiring enough to really give horses their best chance to get ready.Giacomo did it,but he had a thang for Churchill.I would run in the Arkansas Derby(not THE SANTA ANITA DERBY.) The synthetic/dirt transfer is important enough for me to want to try dirt before the Derby,but I do think it's overkill to toss horses who haven't tried dirt before trying the Derby.They are all gunna try working over Churchill.If they look awful over it,then toss.

yeah I know, I'm not familiar with those horses by name, I'll have to look them up. thats basically where I was going. my idea is that its not as hard for a horse in sharp form on synthetic to take to dirt, as it is for SOME dirt horses to take their sharp form to synthetic. Its kinda hard to back it up though because there is not a lot of shippers out of CA to dirt tracks.
If I pay attention to horses that ship out of Arlington this year I might be able to back it up.

It worked for Sunnys Halo